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Dustaway
06-16-2011, 07:55 AM
Do you think it's a good idea to post the list of judges names that have signed up for a event?

Lake Dogs
06-16-2011, 07:59 AM
no, i dont think so.

The_Kapn
06-16-2011, 08:07 AM
Not sure what it would accomplish and a lot more work for the organizer.

JMHO

TIM

Fatback Joe
06-16-2011, 08:16 AM
I don't see any benefit in that.

willkat98
06-16-2011, 08:30 AM
I don't see any benefit in that.

Even for adding to your Christmas card list?


.

Fatback Joe
06-16-2011, 08:33 AM
Even for adding to your Christmas card list?


.

Only if I can assign the names to the scores. :-D

Now get back in the woodpile.

Warthog
06-16-2011, 08:40 AM
Don't sound right to me. Looks like another witch hunt.

Lake Dogs
06-16-2011, 09:01 AM
Don't sound right to me. Looks like another witch hunt.

That, or an opportunity to mess with the judging pool (or worse, the perception that it's been messed with).

Not good.

Alexa RnQ
06-16-2011, 09:12 AM
I have yet to see any concrete reason against it. It's been the practice in California for years, and no harm has yet been demonstrated from it.

Honest people doing a good job have nothing to hide. I honestly can't think of another judging activity engaged in public where the identity of judges is hidden -- rose shows, the list of judges is known; dog shows, hell the judges are publicized months in advance, it's part of the draw of the event.

Somebody mentioned beer judging here the other day -- what's the practice there?

rweller
06-16-2011, 09:24 AM
I judge (KCBS) a lot and it doesn't bother me at all.

Question for you, what would it matter if it was listed. Even if it was listed, I don't know whos Q I'm judging and you don't know who's judging your Q. At least not each entry.

SaucyWench
06-16-2011, 09:47 AM
I don't have a problem with my name being listed, and I don't see how it could impact the contest.

bover
06-16-2011, 09:49 AM
Wouldn't surprise me if this feature was one of the outputs from the new scoring/tracking system that's supposedly in the works by KCBS.

carlyle
06-16-2011, 10:53 AM
As an organizer and judge chair, the list is already made in various forms , so you would not be creating a list, just using what is already there.

On the flip side, the judges do not see the list of teams they are judging either.
The only way judges know what teams are at a contest is by observing as they are
going from parking to judging area.

Both of the essential sides of a contest, teams and judges, need to be treated equally.

I would not like to have judges see a list of the teams they are judging as it may lead to expectations before samples are even presented to them.

KCBS goes to great lengths to separate teams and judging to keep the process as fair and impartial to the cooks as it can be.

Posting judges names is a bad idea, IMHO.

Dustaway
06-16-2011, 11:27 AM
the reason I asked the question is because I received my email from the promoter for the KCBS regional event in Fort Worth and according to the email the teams along with the judges are listed on his site?

http://www.smokeonthewaterbbq.com/regional-events/fort-worth-tx-july-15-16.html

just thought it was odd

Rich Parker
06-16-2011, 11:35 AM
The judges list and team list was also available prior to the Sam's event in Traverse City, MI. I don't see anything wrong with it because like what was already mentioned the judges don't know which team they judged and the team doesn't know which judge judged their food.

Makes no difference in my opinion.

QansasjayhawQ
06-16-2011, 01:48 PM
Yeah - I don't see any benefit from posting the judges names. But I don't see any harm in it either. I can't see where it would make a difference, unless the names were of BBQ Illuminati . . . if I saw Dave Compton on the judges list, it would make me nervous.


(just kidding)

tmcmaster
06-16-2011, 02:28 PM
I would glance at a list, if it were easily publically accessed. Iw ouldn't commit much energy to seek it out. But, it would be neat to see who judges from contest to cntest, if for nothing else to get a handle on how a certain group of judges (They travel in herds, don't they?) judges regionally.

Smokey Bones
06-16-2011, 02:48 PM
I compete and am a CBJ. My preference for a comp is that both lists are shown.

The other teams list so I know whom I'm up against, and to see if friends from farther away might be there.

When I judge, having a posted and current, judge list is important to me. Not for who's on it, but that I was accepted to be a judge. With comps that more judges try to get in than can get on, it lets me know I'm there. It is very frustrating as more promoters (here in CA) don't post judge sign-up sheets, but only seem to work from personal emails to them, and then don't list who they've selected.

Teams don't know who judges them, and judges don't know the teams they've tasted.
Having the names of both really doesn't matter.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-16-2011, 03:07 PM
Why not.

gmholler
06-16-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't mind getting it in an email, but I don't see what purpose it would serve.

It's nice to know that so-and-so will be there if I need to talk with that person. Likewise, it would be nice to see what teams are supposed to be there - but, either way, that knowledge can be used for "I'm not going to that if XXX is going to be there" or "I'm not entering - the competition already looks too tough" - and in that case, ignorance is bliss.

I can live without knowing who's going to judge or who's cooking. But most of the time, it would be just plain helpful to know HOW MANY judges or teams are planning on being there(but then again, I think many organizers would like to know that as well, and often they won't until the last minute!).

Lynn H.

Rookie'48
06-16-2011, 03:36 PM
. . . if I saw Dave Compton on the judges list, it would make me nervous.
(just kidding)

It would make me nervous too, especially if I hadn't signed up :doh:.

Really, what's the difference? A few of us judges post when & where we'll be judging. It might be nice to see how many of your friends are going to be "in the tent". Other than that it's no different than having the cooking teams listed.

The Giggler
06-16-2011, 03:40 PM
On the flip side, the judges do not see the list of teams they are judging either. The only way judges know what teams are at a contest is by observing as they are going from parking to judging area.

If you have a website, and update the list of competitors, the information is available to the judges.

I'm also a competitor and organizer. If the list of judges was made public, it might make judges think twice before becoming a No-Show. As an organizer, that has to be my biggest complaint.

If a team doesn't show or turn in - they get a zero on the scoresheets. Perhaps publicizing the roster of judges, and labeling No-Shows if they blow it off might be worthwhile. (Mind you, I understand that things come up that lead to cancellations - I'm referencing an absolute No-Show as in confirmed several times via email and no phone call when they realize they can't make it). I know we typically have a few No-Shows every year. Teams want CBJs, and CBJs want to know they have a seat at the table. Its quite a balancing act.

Rookie'48
06-16-2011, 03:48 PM
Ditto what Mike just said ^^^^^.

rweller
06-16-2011, 04:05 PM
I'm also a competitor and organizer. If the list of judges was made public, it might make judges think twice before becoming a No-Show. As an organizer, that has to be my biggest complaint.

If a team doesn't show or turn in - they get a zero on the scoresheets. Perhaps publicizing the roster of judges, and labeling No-Shows if they blow it off might be worthwhile. (Mind you, I understand that things come up that lead to cancellations - I'm referencing an absolute No-Show as in confirmed several times via email and no phone call when they realize they can't make it). I know we typically have a few No-Shows every year. Teams want CBJs, and CBJs want to know they have a seat at the table. Its quite a balancing act.

I can see where your coming from Mike and don't have a problem with that. When I make a commitment I do it. There would have to be a serious problem for me to not show up when I committed.
Here's my gripe with organizers and not all of them. Let your judges know your selecting them to judge. I look at the contest list in advance so I can plan contest I would like to judge. Then send an email or fill out there judges application and send it in. It would be nice to have some kind of confirmation within a week or two so I can put it on my schedule.
I don't like for an organizer calling or emailing a week before the contest and saying I need you to judge when I asked a month or two before. When they do that I just sorry I made other plans since I didn't hear from you.

riblette
06-16-2011, 04:27 PM
As mentioned above, here in California it’s common to have both judges and teams listed. I’m a cook…rarely a judge…and I like seeing both listed.

Seeing top-tier teams sign up has never dissuaded me from attending a comp. Conversely, I am more likely to sign up when I see some of our buds are signed up…especially ones we haven’t seen in a while. As for the judges, knowing the panel has never had an effect on us, positively or negatively, but when we see some of our friends who are judges on the list we make a point of seeking them out on Friday or after turn-ins.

I may be na´ve but I think the judge/team relationship is pretty strong up here in our area, unfortunately it doesn’t sound like that’s the case in other regions.

watertowerbbq
06-16-2011, 05:02 PM
At the Barbeqlossal, they posted the names of the judges and nobody seemed to have a problem with it.

bbq.tom
06-16-2011, 06:13 PM
A couple of the events that I've judged they listed the names of the judges, but that is a rarity. I don't have a problem being listed, and I don't see any harm or benefit to the list other than so the judges know in advance what other judges will be there.
I agree that it would be great if the organizers would let the judges know further in advance what judges had been accepted to judge. I realize that this is contingent on how many teams sign up and show up, but I would think that they have a pretty good idea LONG before the actual comp date.

swamprb
06-16-2011, 06:39 PM
Common to post a Judges Roll Call here in PNWBA Land. What's the big deal?

Meat Burner
06-16-2011, 07:41 PM
No. Just my opinion. Don't create an opportunity to create more controvery. Soon, we will have to ask congress permission to sign up to judge or compete by their rules. Maybe that's what some people want. Not me though. Backyard is looking better all the time.

Fat Woody
06-16-2011, 08:08 PM
On the flip side, the judges do not see the list of teams they are judging either.
The only way judges know what teams are at a contest is by observing as they are going from parking to judging area.

Most contest websites post the entrants well in advance, so it would be easier for judges to see who is competing, if they wanted to.

It makes no difference to me either way, although I think Mike's point about no-show judges being held accountable is a valid one.

SaucyWench
06-16-2011, 08:17 PM
I just don't see how knowing ahead of time which teams and judges will be at a comp creates an opportunity for controversy, Meat. In 10 years of judging, I have made great friends from many teams across the country, as well as reps, organizers and other judges. I love the interaction between us all, a beer here, a pitch-in there, or just applauding everyone at awards. Publish my name, don't publish my name, I don't care.

Sylvie
06-16-2011, 09:10 PM
As a judge, I don't have a problem having my name listed. As a competitor it only serves to see if the pool is primarily CBJs.

If someone had time, I guess they could try to assess contest to contest if the same pool of judges are judging and if there is some consistency in score(s) you receive with that pool of judges to determine if you tweak something or not.

Meat Burner
06-16-2011, 09:53 PM
Oh, it makes no difference to me if they publish team names and judges names. I just know how some people start to use that in a negative way to complain and moan about something being unfair in some way. I have no problem with it at all. I just want to have fun and enjoy folk.

CivilWarBBQ
06-16-2011, 10:38 PM
The only reason I see to post judges names is if an organizer is having trouble getting enough CBJs and wants to encourage other judges to come because they see their friends in the list. Other than that, it serves no useful purpose to publish the list.

bover
06-17-2011, 08:07 AM
From time to time I have seen and heard both competitors and judges question the accuracy of the CBJ percentage posted for a contest (North KC anyone?). Publishing the judges list would quickly answer those questions.

The Giggler
06-17-2011, 08:35 AM
I can see where your coming from Mike and don't have a problem with that. When I make a commitment I do it. There would have to be a serious problem for me to not show up when I committed.
Here's my gripe with organizers and not all of them. Let your judges know your selecting them to judge. I look at the contest list in advance so I can plan contest I would like to judge. Then send an email or fill out there judges application and send it in. It would be nice to have some kind of confirmation within a week or two so I can put it on my schedule.
I don't like for an organizer calling or emailing a week before the contest and saying I need you to judge when I asked a month or two before. When they do that I just sorry I made other plans since I didn't hear from you.

I agree with you about communication. That's why we have the Judges Registration Form on our website. Judges are confirmed on a first come, first served basis, and sorted by postmark date. CBJs willing to judge both KCBS and NEBS are given priority. Once we know how many we need, there is another confirmation. Seems pretty fair to me.

Last year, I invited two local Judges to handle all aspects of judging, and ordained them Head Judges. David and Eileen Bunn are top notch folks, and have done a tremendous job.

Rookie'48
06-17-2011, 05:21 PM
From time to time I have seen and heard both competitors and judges question the accuracy of the CBJ percentage posted for a contest (North KC anyone?). Publishing the judges list would quickly answer those questions.

Come on Josh! The jerk that runs (???) that comp can't even be bothered to tell judges if they are in or not - how is he suppossed to find time to post a list of judges :mad: ? But then again he must be doing it all right because KCBS gave him an award this year :hail::hail::hail:. <<< = sarcasm mod

smoke-n-my-i's
06-17-2011, 07:17 PM
My wife took the judging class a few months ago, and since I helped the cook team I listened in after we were done cooking.... Then we both took the Table Captain class. From what I understand, this is going to be the norm from now on. KCBS is going to track the judges and see who is and who isn't being consistent with the other judges, showing up after signing up, etc..... So if a single judge scores a category way low compared to others, his/her name will be noted somehow and kept track of.... if a judge signs up to judge and doesn't show up with no communication, that will be noted also. The contest organizers will then have a database from which to see who they can rely on as "good" judges. If this is really what is going to happen, I am all for it. I can not tell you why they are being published, but to me, it doesn't or shouldn't matter. The teams are listed, so why not the judges and table captains as well. My $0.02 worth so I am headed to the time out room....

Wouldn't surprise me if this feature was one of the outputs from the new scoring/tracking system that's supposedly in the works by KCBS.

I'm also a competitor and organizer. If the list of judges was made public, it might make judges think twice before becoming a No-Show. As an organizer, that has to be my biggest complaint.

If a team doesn't show or turn in - they get a zero on the scoresheets. Perhaps publicizing the roster of judges, and labeling No-Shows if they blow it off might be worthwhile. (Mind you, I understand that things come up that lead to cancellations - I'm referencing an absolute No-Show as in confirmed several times via email and no phone call when they realize they can't make it). I know we typically have a few No-Shows every year. Teams want CBJs, and CBJs want to know they have a seat at the table. Its quite a balancing act.

Meat Burner
06-17-2011, 07:31 PM
My wife took the judging class a few months ago, and since I helped the cook team I listened in after we were done cooking.... Then we both took the Table Captain class. From what I understand, this is going to be the norm from now on. KCBS is going to track the judges and see who is and who isn't being consistent with the other judges, showing up after signing up, etc..... So if a single judge scores a category way low compared to others, his/her name will be noted somehow and kept track of.... if a judge signs up to judge and doesn't show up with no communication, that will be noted also. The contest organizers will then have a database from which to see who they can rely on as "good" judges. If this is really what is going to happen, I am all for it. I can not tell you why they are being published, but to me, it doesn't or shouldn't matter. The teams are listed, so why not the judges and table captains as well. My $0.02 worth so I am headed to the time out room....

That sounds like a good idea. The intent should be to make the judging better. With that said, my thought would be manditory feedback to the teams with a score of 5 - 7 , from a judge,or whatever number is decided on. The rule changes should be designed to help the teams understand what the judges use as their criteria to score the entry. At the same time, we need to protect the integrety of making this enjoyable and not get to the point that the Supreme Court has to get involved. LOL

Rookie'48
06-18-2011, 12:38 AM
... my thought would be manditory feedback to the teams with a score of 5 - 7 , from a judge,or whatever number is decided on.

In theory I agree with this, but in practice it won't work. If a comment card is required for a 6 or below then the lowest score that you'll see will be a 7. The judges that give out cards now will continue to do so, but the others will just give the next highest number so that they don't have to fill one out.

QansasjayhawQ
06-18-2011, 12:39 AM
I've often sat there in the judging area thinking of all the data that's being generated . . . and not being used. (I'm a database administrator.)

The one most common complaint that I've heard from organizers is judges who say they want to judge an event . . . and then simply don't show. So the organizers might invite a few 'extra' judges the next year . . . and then everybody shows up. Then they have too many.

Tracking who honors their commitments and who bails on the organizers would be step #1 to ensuring good judges.

Step #2 would be to detect . . . and then retrain the 'outlying' judges.

However, from what I can tell, once a judge reaches about 20 contests in experience, they pretty much know what the heck they're doing.

So . . . to keep this on topic . . . if the names of the judges are on display then their status and experience should also be on display.

Judge 24295
David Childers
This is contest #28 for David
Overall history scoring is +.0028 points compared to the norm, -.0003 compared to the median
No Shows: 0
# of contests judged last 12 months: 10
Last contest judged: Abilene, KS May 21, 2011

This kind of information would be good, useful information.

Then, not only do the organizers want to provide certified judges . . . but certified, experienced, active judges.

Of course this means newby judges would be forced to judge the minor contests first, like Axtell, KS or Girard, KS . . . but that would also mean a good supply of judges for those events that are not right next to a major metro area.

Then . . . I always imagined that for the American Royal Invitational they would use ONLY Master judges . . . who have a recommendation from another judge, are accurate and active . . . or something like that. It seems that judging the invitational is a pretty important contest to judge - why would you leave it to anyone but a Master CBJ?

Apologies for the rambling . . .

Meat Burner
06-18-2011, 06:11 PM
Dave, unfortunately, you are probably right. If too much pressure is put on the judging pool, everyone will be given 7,8,or 9 on every entry. That would be a shame for the competition.