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View Full Version : Cooking vs "Prep" and KCBS Rule #2


Slamdunkpro
06-14-2011, 09:52 PM
Not wanting to hijack the Cool / Uncool thread so I'll ask here. Please - NO ONE IS BEING ACCUSED OF UNETHICAL CONDUCT. The other thread just got me wondering

KCBS rule #2 states:
2) Each team shall consist of a chief cook and as many assistants as the chief cook deems necessary.
A team shall not compete in more than one contest under the same team name, on the same date.
Chief cooks and/or assistant cooks may only cook for their designated team at the contest they are attending.

In your opinion, where's the line? When does helping out another team become a violation?

To me "cooking" is when I've picked up a knife and am working on or seasoning food; having it in the cooker, or slicing, finishing or plating. What's your definition?

Some specific situations
Is it OK or a violation to:


Help another team prep their meat
Tend another team's fire in their pit while they sleep
Build another team's boxes

Inquiring minds what to know.

redneck cooker
06-14-2011, 09:58 PM
Not wanting to hijack the Cool / Uncool thread so I'll ask here. Please - NO ONE IS BEING ACCUSED OF UNETHICAL CONDUCT. The other thread just got me wondering

KCBS rule #2 states:
[/B]

In your opinion, where's the line? When does helping out another team become a violation?

To me "cooking" is when I've picked up a knife and am working on or seasoning food; having it in the cooker, or slicing, finishing or plating. What's your definition?

Some specific situations
Is it OK or a violation to:


Help another team prep their meat
Tend another team's fire in their pit while they sleep
Build another team's boxes
Inquiring minds what to know.


helping prep meat and do boxes.....is a clear violation:tsk:
"tend the fire" ..aint gonna happen cause Ill be sleeping.....I dont start cooking till 5am saturday morning....but I see an awful lot of it going on...:tape:

Sledneck
06-14-2011, 10:05 PM
I think your misinterpreting the rule itself. I think the rules is geared towards a a cook working the entire contest for two separate teams. I have sat down with dozens of teams and shown them how to make a parsley putting green. I have walked over to a new team next to me after i notice they were slicing their brisket wrong and jumped in to show them them the right way. I have received help from other cooks along the way as well. I think it more of a mentoring thing than a violation.

goodbuddiesbbq
06-14-2011, 10:07 PM
I would say that all of those things would be a violation. If you think that a fire is about to go out...wake them up. Show them how to build a box, but don't build it. All things meat related other than loaning supplies or suggesting a flavor profile...I would stay away from.

It's about the learning experience to me.

boogiesnap
06-14-2011, 10:16 PM
I think your misinterpreting the rule itself. I think the rules is geared towards a a cook working the entire contest for two separate teams. I have sat down with dozens of teams and shown them how to make a parsley putting green. I have walked over to a new team next to me after i notice they were slicing their brisket wrong and jumped in to show them them the right way. I have received help from other cooks along the way as well. I think it more of a mentoring thing than a violation.

agreed. sometimes one needs to look at the spirit of the rule and not the letter of the law.

"can you help me prep my meat, i'm way behind"
yes, i can, tell me how you want it and i'll do some with you.
"can you help me prep my meat, i'm new and have no idea"
sure, i'll show you what i do, and see if you like it.
"can you tend my fire while i sleep"
um, sorry, but i don't know your cooker at all...i can't be trusted with it.
or,
sure, i'll be up to about 1AM, i'll walk over a couple times and look at the temp, if it goes way out of whack, i'll give you a kick.
"can you help me build my boxes"
i can show you what i do regarding parsley, or offer tips on meat arrangement, but, sorry, i'll be a bit busy at the time with mine, and i really shouldn't handle your meat:shocked:

those are kinda my thoughts.

Sledneck
06-14-2011, 10:21 PM
Just curious what the consequences are for violating the rule? Is it a warning? Will i get thrown out of the contest? Banned for life? Just want to know what to expect caused i wont change....:twisted:

Plowboy
06-14-2011, 10:22 PM
Sled for BOD 2012.

Dual ticket with El Jefe.

Sledneck
06-14-2011, 10:27 PM
since we are talking about rules violations:

CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION of a team, its
members and/or guests: A cook team is responsible jointly
and severally for its head cook, its team members and its
guests.
a. Excessive use of alcoholic beverages or public
intoxication with a disturbance.**
b. Serving alcoholic beverages to the general public.
c. Use of illegal controlled substances.
d. Foul, abusive, or unacceptable language or any
language causing a disturbance.
e. Excessive noise, including but not limited to that


Damn, if this were truly enforced their would be quite a few empty 20 x 20's come sunrise ...

Meat Burner
06-14-2011, 10:59 PM
since we are talking about rules violations:

CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION of a team, its
members and/or guests: A cook team is responsible jointly
and severally for its head cook, its team members and its
guests.
a. Excessive use of alcoholic beverages or public
intoxication with a disturbance.**
b. Serving alcoholic beverages to the general public.
c. Use of illegal controlled substances.
d. Foul, abusive, or unacceptable language or any
language causing a disturbance.
e. Excessive noise, including but not limited to that


Damn, if this were truly enforced their would be quite a few empty 20 x 20's come sunrise ...

:clap2:

JimmyDAL
06-15-2011, 05:50 AM
Sled for President.

Ford
06-15-2011, 06:14 AM
you can give all the advice you want and it's encouraged. Even to telling a person to move the knife angle to get a better product. Not sure as a cook how you would have time to tell them during turn in or why you would be watching them do turn in boxes but you can.

What is not allowed is hands on. Simple to understand.

TN_BBQ
06-15-2011, 06:17 AM
I think your misinterpreting the rule itself. I think the rules is geared towards a a cook working the entire contest for two separate teams.

I tend to agree (which ain't worth much :-P).

KCBS have officers and reps (and other folks that are probably on the payroll?).

I know they have an annual meeting and go over amendments and stuff.
Seems this might be something to bring up with them.

Butcher BBQ
06-15-2011, 06:42 AM
This brought to mind the cooks meeting where the reps talk about mentoring a new team. I don't think helping explain what you do with boxes (not sitting down and building all 4), basic make sure you do this..... , keep in mind to watch ........ , We all make comments to new and old teams alike.

watg?
06-15-2011, 07:01 AM
Taking the rule as it is written, along with the below definition, it would seem trimming, box building etc would not be considered cooking, but then I am not an attorney nor a KCBS rep.

I am not claiming to be a cook either, the closest I get to the below definition is numbers 11 & 12. Oh and #10 too!

I guess it amounts to whatever your definition of is is.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

</H2>cook
1    /kʊk/ http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled[koohttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngk] http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–verb (used with object) 1. to prepare (food) by the (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/the) use of heat, as by boiling, baking, or roasting.

2. to subject (anything) to the application of heat.

3. Slang . to ruin; spoil.

EXPAND 4. Informal . to falsify, as accounts: to cook the expense figures.

COLLAPSE

–verb (used without object) 5. to prepare food (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/food) by the use of heat.

6. (of food) to undergo cooking.

7. Slang . a. to be full of activity and excitement: Las Vegas cooks around the clock.

b. to perform, work, or do in just the right way and with energy (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/energy) and enthusiasm: That new drummer is really cooking tonight. Now you're cooking!

c. to be in preparation; develop: Plans for the new factory have been cooking for several years.

d. to take place; occur; happen: What's cooking at the club?




–noun 8. a person who (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/who) cooks: The restaurant hired a new cook.


—Verb phrases 9. cook off, (of a shell or cartridge) to explode or fire (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fire) without being triggered as a result of overheating in the chamber of the weapon.

10. cook up, Informal . a. to concoct or contrive, often dishonestly: She hastily cooked up an excuse.

b. to falsify: Someone had obviously cooked up the alibi.



—Idioms 11. cook one's goose. goose (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/goose) ( def. 11 ) .

12. cook the books, Slang . to manipulate the financial records of a company, organization, etc., so as to conceal profits, avoid taxes (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/taxes), or present a false financial report to stockholders.

PCDoctor_1979
06-15-2011, 07:03 AM
Disclaimer - my comments are from the contest organizer point of view. When it comes down to a question on the rules, I've told teams many times: "If in doubt, don't do it." Additionally, if you see something going on that looks questionable, contact the organizer or one of the on site KCBS Reps. You should have been provided contact information for them in your cooks' packet. Looking into these sorts of questions is part of their job. In my opinion there's a huge difference between offering advice and actually doing the work.

tmcmaster
06-15-2011, 08:40 AM
I would tend to agree with PCD. If you have to ask yourself "Is this legal?" The answer is "Probably not." But, I cook most comps solo, anyway, so I wouldn't know how to react to help... :crazy:

ique
06-15-2011, 09:17 AM
My take is once the meat is inspected it should not leave your cook site.

AZScott
06-15-2011, 10:23 AM
At my last contest there was a team that had earned a free entry from an amateur contest. He was a great guy but he really was green at BBQ and had never trimmed spares before, cooked a brisket, or made a box. I taught him how to trim spares to St Louis when he asked for advice and gave him a quick box class the morning of turn in's. It's a good thing I offered to show him since he was using kale. He didn't ask about the brisket so I didn't show him anything. In my book, doing those things are the right thing to do and hopefully he will be out at another event. When it comes down to a violation due to cooking for another theam, I always figured that is one head cook controlling another teams cook (methods, recipe, etc).

HoDeDo
06-15-2011, 12:52 PM
that rule is there to keep someone from cooking in multiple sites on a given weekend at the same event. for example, if the hodedo's signed up at an event that sow was cooking at, i could not help them cook thier meat, and turn in. i have to pick a team for the weekend to cook with.

you can have your butcher, neighbor, buddy, or whomever trim out your meat. think about it- you can trim it before you get there, anyway.

you can trim out your boxes before you arrive also. have your garnish ready to go. no violation there either.

doing the cooking is the issue... and specifically, if i am a member of a team at the same comp, i cant be an assistant or head cook in another site also. i can have someone not cooking that comp in as an assistant...just not someone already cooking there.

ique
06-15-2011, 12:56 PM
that rule is there to keep someone from cooking in multiple sites on a given weekend at the same event. for example, if the hodedo's signed up at an event that sow was cooking at, i could not help them cook thier meat, and turn in. i have to pick a team for the weekend to cook with.

you can have your butcher, neighbor, buddy, or whomever trim out your meat. think about it- you can trim it before you get there, anyway.

you can trim out your boxes before you arrive also. have your garnish ready to go. no violation there either.

doing the cooking is the issue... and specifically, if i am a member of a team at the same comp, i cant be an assistant or head cook in another site also. i can have someone not cooking that comp in as an assistant...just not someone already cooking there.


But then there is rule 7:

Once the competition meat has been inspected, it shall not leave the
contest site.

Sledneck
06-15-2011, 12:57 PM
you can give all the advice you want and it's encouraged. Even to telling a person to move the knife angle to get a better product. Not sure as a cook how you would have time to tell them during turn in or why you would be watching them do turn in boxes but you can.

What is not allowed is hands on. Simple to understand.

It's vague, I don't see it spelled out as "hands on"

Sledneck
06-15-2011, 01:00 PM
Just for the record , I thought it was an unwritten rule that we save these conversations for the winter when cabin fever set in. Just sayin.....

boogiesnap
06-15-2011, 01:58 PM
threadkiller.

sitnfat
06-15-2011, 04:20 PM
Its to prevent a bunch of people going out and cooking under the same name and racking up points. We can all help each other with whatever I doubt someone would say something.

Sledneck
06-15-2011, 04:39 PM
Its to prevent a bunch of people going out and cooking under the same name and racking up points. We can all help each other with whatever I doubt someone would say something.

Easy for you to say, I'm gonna have mr Fay following me around hiding in trees with a camera at new holland:wink:

Slamdunkpro
06-15-2011, 04:46 PM
Easy for you to say, I'm gonna have mr Fay following me around hiding in trees with a camera at new holland:wink:
Nah, I got a squirrel cam

sitnfat
06-15-2011, 05:54 PM
well if it meant anything else I would be in trouble cause my buddy from another team started my smoker for me the weekend I won RGC and got a 180 brisket:twitch:

Skip
06-15-2011, 06:12 PM
Doesn't anyone around here learn. I can't believe we started another discussion about the rules. Some people think this stuff is critical surgery and any interference above what they deem acceptable is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY OUT OF BOUNDS YOU FREAKIN"CHEATERS YOU! Then there are the reasonable people who know that ALL the KCBS rules were written in a friendly manner to offer a direction. Most understand that a rule specifically stating things like COOK and ASSISTANT would generally revolve around that very job title and duty....not box bitch or trimming. No it would revolve around COOKING because thats what COOKS do they COOK and if the COOK in their own site and another site they are in violations. If they are FRIENDLY asnd they give each other a helping hand they aren't cheaters they are the MAJORITY of BBQ COOKS on the circuit who actually have FRIENDS out here who they swap stories and secrets with. What a concept.

KCBS rules discussion is like bringing up religion. You will always get both sides and the side who is completely out of their mind never listens. So why bother.

Oh and just to add fuel to the fire. KCBS never defines what it means to cook so this rule, like the old pork rule, can not be defined until the action of cooking is defined.

MilitantSquatter
06-15-2011, 07:50 PM
Doesn't anyone around here learn. I can't believe we started another discussion about the rules. Some people think this stuff is critical surgery and any interference above what they deem acceptable is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY OUT OF BOUNDS YOU FREAKIN"CHEATERS YOU! Then there are the reasonable people who know that ALL the KCBS rules were written in a friendly manner to offer a direction. Most understand that a rule specifically stating things like COOK and ASSISTANT would generally revolve around that very job title and duty....not box bitch or trimming. No it would revolve around COOKING because thats what COOKS do they COOK and if the COOK in their own site and another site they are in violations. If they are FRIENDLY asnd they give each other a helping hand they aren't cheaters they are the MAJORITY of BBQ COOKS on the circuit who actually have FRIENDS out here who they swap stories and secrets with. What a concept.

KCBS rules discussion is like bringing up religion. You will always get both sides and the side who is completely out of their mind never listens. So why bother.

Oh and just to add fuel to the fire. KCBS never defines what it means to cook so this rule, like the old pork rule, can not be defined until the action of cooking is defined.

Maybe KCBS needs a three branch government with separation of powers and responsibilities... With an executive, legislative and judicial end, then there could be a BBQ Supreme Court to decipher the original intent of the rules much like the US Supreme Court is supposed to do by interpreting the words of the Constitution by the founding fathers..

and Skip can be the Chief Justice !!! :wink:

Sledneck
06-15-2011, 08:53 PM
i am not a learned man so i rayly dint understand wut you guys is a talking bout

Muzzlebrake
06-15-2011, 09:01 PM
oh great now you guys got Skip involved!
:peep:

goodbuddiesbbq
06-16-2011, 06:42 PM
well if it meant anything else I would be in trouble cause my buddy from another team started my smoker for me the weekend I won RGC and got a 180 brisket:twitch:

I shall start the proclamation to have that weekend erased from the records and you have to give back the RGC and 180 brisket. Start the USC and Ohio State penalty...you can't cook as a head cook for the next 3 years.

Coincidentally, we are looking for a brisket cook...and...you're hired.