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roksmith
06-13-2011, 04:34 PM
After listening to the board minutes from this week, I really have to wonder if anybody on the board actually does any research at all.
We had a discussion on here a month or so again about Sous Vide cooking and this week the board has decided to disallow it for food safety reasons because of a definition found on Wikipedia. Really? Wikipedia?

15 minutes of research would have found dozens of sites full of research material on how this method can be done safely and safely in the field. I amazes me that rather than fully research a method which, by the way, has been used for hundreds of years safely, they poke around for just long enough to realize they don't fully understand something, so it must be a bad thing.

You may agree or disagree that it's true BBQ, but there is no way it's any more unsafe than any of half a dozen other methods being used.

huminie
06-13-2011, 04:44 PM
I agree with you. It is not an unsafe cooking method when done properly...like almost every other form of cooking.

They should deny it for the fact that it is not barbeque, not because it is unsafe.

boogiesnap
06-13-2011, 09:20 PM
please, forgive my ignorance.

is the KCBS board compensated monetarily or strictly volunteer?

roksmith
06-14-2011, 06:22 AM
I believe they are only compensated for expenses related to performing their duties. But I could be wrong.

PimpSmoke
06-14-2011, 07:40 AM
My issue after l listening for this, was that the BOD spent more time talking about something that the vast majority of teams well have nothing to do with, the annual meeting, than things that directly affect teams, the rules. I got the impression the annual meeting in the planning phase kinda sounds more like a retreat for the BOD than anything. I understand they are trying to make a good event for the members that may have the money to attend or a shot at TOY, but that's not the majority. Just seems the priorities for a body represents the membership as a whole, should be a little more for the majority.

off of box

DawgPhan
06-14-2011, 09:17 AM
After listening to the board minutes from this week, I really have to wonder if anybody on the board actually does any research at all.
We had a discussion on here a month or so again about Sous Vide cooking and this week the board has decided to disallow it for food safety reasons because of a definition found on Wikipedia. Really? Wikipedia?

15 minutes of research would have found dozens of sites full of research material on how this method can be done safely and safely in the field. I amazes me that rather than fully research a method which, by the way, has been used for hundreds of years safely, they poke around for just long enough to realize they don't fully understand something, so it must be a bad thing.

You may agree or disagree that it's true BBQ, but there is no way it's any more unsafe than any of half a dozen other methods being used.


So your problem isnt that they didnt do any research, they did. It's that their research conflicts with your opinion. They made a decision, I dont think anyone would really disagree with it when you consider the context.

An secondly, are you really contending that the Sous vide method has been used for hundreds of years?

Muzzlebrake
06-14-2011, 09:49 AM
My issue after l listening for this, was that the BOD spent more time talking about something that the vast majority of teams well have nothing to do with, the annual meeting, than things that directly affect teams, the rules. I got the impression the annual meeting in the planning phase kinda sounds more like a retreat for the BOD than anything. I understand they are trying to make a good event for the members that may have the money to attend or a shot at TOY, but that's not the majority. Just seems the priorities for a body represents the membership as a whole, should be a little more for the majority.

off of box

no offense but I think more members will be attending the Annual Meeting and Banquet then will be trying to Sous Vide their turn ins.
If you have never attended one of the banquets, you should try do so. It is a whole lot of fun when that many KCBS members can get together not under a tent without the distraction of cooking.
That being said, make sure you eat before the dinner.....:becky:

ique
06-14-2011, 09:55 AM
We had a discussion on here a month or so again about Sous Vide cooking and this week the board has decided to disallow it for food safety reasons

Well that's a bummer, been wanting to try that at a comp

roksmith
06-14-2011, 12:03 PM
So your problem isnt that they didnt do any research, they did. It's that their research conflicts with your opinion. They made a decision, I dont think anyone would really disagree with it when you consider the context.

An secondly, are you really contending that the Sous vide method has been used for hundreds of years?

When a search on Wikipedia constitutes "research", it's a sad day considering that Wikipedia entries are submitted by anybody that wants to.

And I suppose the modern day Sous Vide method began with the advent of plastic, but it's roots predate even BBQ. Slow cooking at a lower temperature in a sealed container has been around a very long time.

And their very reason for considering it unsafe would also disallow MSG.. Because it is also a health hazard for a small percentage of the population. The difference being that if used properly, Sous Vide is as safe as any cooking method..


And Chris.. It does well in comps if done right.... well I guess it did. :(

CBQ
06-14-2011, 12:21 PM
You know what the Rhode Island Department of Health considers an extremely risky method of cooking requiring extra documentation when applying for a health permit?



Smoking.



Maybe we should ban that too. :becky:


I don't think Sous Vide is truly BBQ, so I could understand that, but the food safety argument doesn't make sense coming from an organization that is promoting low and slow cooking.

Slamdunkpro
06-14-2011, 12:34 PM
That being said, make sure you eat before the dinner.....:becky:
Or at least know where the good cheesesteak places are:heh:

Slamdunkpro
06-14-2011, 12:45 PM
I suspect they implemented it under "Food Safety" so they could enforce it immediately vs having to wait until the 2012 season for a formal rule change.

Sous vid isn't something that one should just jump into, especially low temp sous vid without a little research. For example fresh garlic and long duration low temp sous vid is a VERY bad idea and can be dangerous.

The board is opening up a Pandora's box with this. No gas / no electric / no deep frying and no parboiling used to be the limitations. So now you can't sous vid, yet it's still OK to braise, poach, and boil to finish (yes, I've seen it). Still, until you see reps peeking into cookers this is another rule that won't be enforced.

As the Board continues to increase the restrictions on cooking methods, all we are going to end up with is more homogeneous tasting and identical looking turn ins.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-14-2011, 12:53 PM
Exactly what makes it risky? Low cooking temps? Kcbs is now the food police! hahaha, they have never temped my meat in my cooler. They have much bigger fish to fry.

Stoke&Smoke
06-14-2011, 01:32 PM
How would one do Sous Vide under rule#6? Is there such a thing as a charcoal or wood fired sous vide circulator?

6) Fires shall be of wood, wood pellets or charcoal. Gas and
electric heat sources shall not be permitted for cooking or
holding. Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters,
provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking
device

CBQ
06-14-2011, 02:50 PM
How would one do Sous Vide under rule#6? Is there such a thing as a charcoal or wood fired sous vide circulator?

6) Fires shall be of wood, wood pellets or charcoal. Gas and
electric heat sources shall not be permitted for cooking or
holding. Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters,
provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking
device


It's been done using coolers.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103988&highlight=sous+vide

Scottie
06-14-2011, 03:09 PM
Well that's a bummer, been wanting to try that at a comp



The Jambo firebox and maybe some wood shims *might* work to keep the water temp low. I wouldnt know that though :roll:.. Just saying....

boogiesnap
06-14-2011, 03:14 PM
back to the drawing board.

boogiesnap
06-14-2011, 03:15 PM
The Jambo firebox and maybe some wood shims *might* work to keep the water temp low. I wouldnt know that though :roll:.. Just saying....

you could "know" that before the board ruling:wink:

The_Kapn
06-14-2011, 03:40 PM
I know this is about the BOD decision, but I have been playing with the technique for awhile.

I put a couple of inches of water (hot) into a doubled up full size disposable pan.
I clip a remote probe in place to monitor temp.
I place in Traeger or FEC at 300 or so and wait for water temp to go past 160. Looking for 180 or so because temp is gonna nose dive when chicken is added and does not recover quickly.
Turn pit temp down to 170 which will produce a good 160 deg bath later.

Chicken is vacusucked with rub and/or marinade and/or sauce and placed into water.
I turn it with tongs every 30 minutes or so--kinda like a part time circulator.

At 3 hr mark, pull the chicken. My thermopen always says it is right at 160 like it is supposed to be.
Onto a hotter grill with or without sauce to finish up.

Actually works very good.
White meat is super juicy and tender.
Flavors need work. Actually a lot of work, but not horrible or even bad. Just not where they need to be for now.

Definitely not BBQ, but a break from the normal to play with.

I have judged with several judges who would never know the difference.

I fail to see any violation of food safety guidelines here.
And, the heat source is wood.

Back to your normal thread content now :-D

TIM

roksmith
06-14-2011, 03:43 PM
What I thought was interesting was that they seemed to be OK with cooking brisket, slicing, vacuum bagging and cooling only to reheat later using hot water prior to boxing.
Would seem to me that since Health Departments (at least around here) rate anybody who cools and reheats a higher risk than someone who heats once and serves, that it would be more dangerous to do that than to cook sou vide properly and safely.

Oh well.. I suppose what ever they decide....

ique
06-14-2011, 03:45 PM
The Jambo firebox and maybe some wood shims *might* work to keep the water temp low. I wouldnt know that though :roll:.. Just saying....

Well my plan was to:

1. Smoke meats
2. cryovac
3. put big stainless steel tubs filled with water in the jambo
4. submerge meats in the water
5. use a bbq guru device to keep the water at a precise temp
6. Go to sleep for the night

:-P

roksmith
06-14-2011, 03:57 PM
I know this is about the BOD decision, but I have been playing with the technique for awhile.

I put a couple of inches of water (hot) into a doubled up full size disposable pan.
I clip a remote probe in place to monitor temp.
I place in Traeger or FEC at 300 or so and wait for water temp to go past 160. Looking for 180 or so because temp is gonna nose dive when chicken is added and does not recover quickly.
Turn pit temp down to 170 which will produce a good 160 deg bath later.

Chicken is vacusucked with rub and/or marinade and/or sauce and placed into water.
I turn it with tongs every 30 minutes or so--kinda like a part time circulator.

At 3 hr mark, pull the chicken. My thermopen always says it is right at 160 like it is supposed to be.
Onto a hotter grill with or without sauce to finish up.

Actually works very good.
White meat is super juicy and tender.
Flavors need work. Actually a lot of work, but not horrible or even bad. Just not where they need to be for now.

Definitely not BBQ, but a break from the normal to play with.

I have judged with several judges who would never know the difference.

I fail to see any violation of food safety guidelines here.
And, the heat source is wood.

Back to your normal thread content now :-D

TIM

..sounds safe to me
I wonder if anybody on the board would be willing to explain how that method would be a food safety issue.
...or is that not considered sou vide because he isn't cooking at 140 degrees?

The_Kapn
06-14-2011, 04:00 PM
..sounds safe to me
I wonder if anybody on the board would be willing to explain how that method would be a food safety issue.
...or is that not considered sou vide because he isn't cooking at 140 degrees?

Actually, every recipie I found for chicken was 160 on the water temp.
Appears the goal is to have water at "finish temp" for the product.
So, a "rare steak" might use 125 water or so.

At least that is what I thought I learned.

TIM

roksmith
06-14-2011, 04:11 PM
..by the way, in case there is any question, here is the official food safety chart. Slightly outdated, but it clearly shows that meat held at least at 150 degrees for at least 15 minutes is just as safe as meat cooked to 165 degrees.
http://www.cookingissues.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/bacteria_time_temperature2.jpg