Wings for a chicken turn in?

[jasonjax]

I like to think, and so many a recipient of my smoked wings has said, that I make some pretty tasty wings. That said, I see most of the professional teams turning in chicken thighs. My initital thoughts were maybe warmth and juciness, and flavor from the fat as factors, but that is just me guessing. Would anyone mind providing some guideance on the reasoning behind this. Do judges actually deduct based on which piece you provide?

Thanks!

[Lake Dogs]

First off, you're entering a non-sanctioned event, yes? All bets are off. Wings could easily win an ancillary chicken contest.

KCBS (and many others) will judge on 3 criteria: Appearance, Tenderness/Texture, and Taste

It's almost impossible to have a perfectly cooked breast, drumstick, or wing compete day in and day out in tenderness with a thigh. That's why 95%+ use thighs.

[Fatback Joe]

. My initital thoughts were maybe warmth and juciness, and flavor from the fat as factors, but that is just me guessing.

I think you pretty much have it figured out.

No deductions made based on what piece you provide. Thighs are just the most common for the reasons you mentioned, plus they are relatively forgiving to cook.

[jasonjax]

First off, you're entering a non-sanctioned event, yes?


The event is actually KCBS sanctioned, but since this is my first ever sojourn into the world of competition I'm enetering the backyard cooks division which requires turning in ribs and chicken.

[Big Mike's BBQ]

There are some good teams that win lots with chicken wings. JUst cause you hear that most teams do something, that does not mean all teams do and that the ones that don't are not winning doing it. Cook wings if that is what you are good at.

Big Mike

[Sawdustguy]

There are some good teams that win lots with chicken wings. JUst cause you hear that most teams do something, that does not mean all teams do and that the ones that don't are not winning doing it. Cook wings if that is what you are good at.

Big Mike

I, for one would love to know some of the good teams who have won a chicken catagory in a KCBS contest using chicken wings.

[Lake Dogs]

I've read about a few teams that do fairly well with drumsticks, but I dont know that I've ever heard of anyone consistently placing high in chicken with wings...

I'd be interested to see what a very seasoned KCBS judge has to say. Meaning, how often do wings come across the table, and how do they fare?

[boogiesnap]

I, for one would love to know some of the good teams who have won a chicken catagory in a KCBS contest using chicken wings.

me too. OP, do a search with wings and my handle. there was a pretty extensive thread regarding the topic. bottom line i took was, I LIKE WINGS, but, i'll TURN IN thighs.

[boogiesnap]

here it is.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104716

[Hub]

I've seen wings show up as a chicken entry at my table once in five years. Unfortunately, they weren't very good ones -- dry, a little burnt, poorly arranged for appearance.

Wings have a low meat to bone ratio and are hard to keep from getting overcooked (no one cares when you slather on a lot of sauce for use as an appetizer).

As mentioned above, thighs are easy to trim attractively, deal well with a little overcooking, and have natural chicken flavor that carries through even when over-sauced.

If you want to win, do thighs. If you want to have fun, try the wings. As a judge I admire creativity and don't pre-judge based on what the chunk of bird is. If wings are tasty, moist, and not over-seasoned they'll stand a chance of a good score but you've got to know you're bucking a huge trend. Good luck!

[Sawdustguy]

There are some good teams that win lots with chicken wings. JUst cause you hear that most teams do something, that does not mean all teams do and that the ones that don't are not winning doing it. Cook wings if that is what you are good at.

Big Mike


We are still waiting to hear of the names of the good teams who have won a chicken catagory in a KCBS contest using chicken wings. I have a feeling it will be a list with nobody on it.

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

tried it for a year (last) good flavor, only 1 top 10 finish.

[Dan - 3eyzbbq]

We are still waiting to hear of the names of the good teams who have won a chicken catagory in a KCBS contest using chicken wings. I have a feeling it will be a list with nobody on it.

Chicken wings + thighs, I know a couple teams. Just chicken wings? None that I know of.

[Sirsmokealot]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z171/jkreigh/IMG_2722.jpg

I called it "Doing the wrong thing, the right way" They were dead on. Scored lower top 3rd out of around 70. Will not do again, Had to know...

BTW this is my first post, lurking for a while. Jason Kreigh of Fowl Butt BBQ

[tmcmaster]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z171/jkreigh/IMG_2722.jpg

I called it "Doing the wrong thing, the right way" They were dead on. Scored lower top 3rd out of around 70. Will not do again, Had to know...

BTW this is my first post, lurking for a while. Jason Kreigh of Fowl Butt BBQ

Welcome!!!:clap2:

[bover]

Judged one fantastic entry this past weekend that was wings + thighs. It was easily the one I scored the highest. I obviously have no idea where that entry ended up placing, but in my opinion it deserved a top 5 at least.

[Rub]

tried it for a year (last) good flavor, only 1 top 10 finish.
Great color, try trimming them down if you decide to try it again.

[NorthwestBBQ]

3rd place Chicken at the PNWBA Spring Training in Kent, WA.

[The Giggler]

I, for one would love to know some of the good teams who have won a chicken catagory in a KCBS contest using chicken wings.

You might be quite surprised.

[boogiesnap]

You might be quite surprised.

do tell.

[The Giggler]

do tell.

I would never out another team's entry, but when I was openly tooling with adding wings to the thigh turn in, I was really taken back by who has turned them in and the result. We're not talking new teams, we're talking about teams with multiple GCs.

For the record, I haven't had the stones to do wings or legs, when my chicken thighs have done so well over the years.

[boogiesnap]

fair enough. thought it was yourself.

i know of 1 team who does quite well with a wing and thigh turn in.

but, what i'm gathering from your response is the wing is more of a "burnt end" bonus.

i appreciate your response.

[Rookie'48]

As a personal view, I'm not going to care what the cut of bird is - all I want is for the cook to do a dead-on job of preparing it. I've seen wings only in a box maybe once a year, if that. I'll score them on their own merit as presented by the cook, but I think that some other judges might not feel that way. A team that I've cooked with used to do skinless cornish hind quarters (talk about a full box!) and they did well for a while then they didn't.

[The Giggler]

fair enough. thought it was yourself.

i know of 1 team who does quite well with a wing and thigh turn in.

but, what i'm gathering from your response is the wing is more of a "burnt end" bonus.

i appreciate your response.

Personally, wings are my first choice for eating. If I thought they would consistently be received and scored well in a judge's tent, I might commit. Having worked on a recipe for chicken legs for 8 months, removing all the connective tissue, and acheiving butter bath free bite through skin, I'm just not ready to get away from an entry and trim that usually scores pretty well.

I have done the wing-thigh turn in twice. Problem is, you don't really know which piece was scored, or if it was a combination of both. That's the only drawback to a bonus piece in any box.

[bover]

I have done the wing-thigh turn in twice. Problem is, you don't really know which piece was scored, or if it was a combination of both. That's the only drawback to a bonus piece in any box.

If it's KCBS, the judge is supposed to be scoring those as a combination of both.

[boogiesnap]

Personally, wings are my first choice for eating. If I thought they would consistently be received and scored well in a judge's tent, I might commit. Having worked on a recipe for chicken legs for 8 months, removing all the connective tissue, and acheiving butter bath free bite through skin, I'm just not ready to get away from an entry and trim that usually scores pretty well.

I have done the wing-thigh turn in twice. Problem is, you don't really know which piece was scored, or if it was a combination of both. That's the only drawback to a bonus piece in any box.

thanks, i agree 100%. wings are so darn tasty, i get that they don't score well, typically, but question why.

you make a good point about bonus meat.

i, as well, have been dialing in a thigh for about 3 months. it's what i'm going with next comp and see where it gets me.

last, sorry again for asking to reveal other teams boxes. that was out of line and unprofessional.

[The Giggler]

If it's KCBS, the judge is supposed to be scoring those as a combination of both.

EXACTLY, and you have to trust that the CBJs know what they are doing, and Table Captain is following through on that. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that not every judge takes a sample of each.

Say they do take some of each - how would you break down your score after getting your sheets? The score is a combination of the two - perhaps the thighs were awful and the wings were awesome. By having multiple items in a box, you take the chance of scoring lower because the score was averaged. My 2 cents.

[Rookie'48]

If it's KCBS, the judge is supposed to be scoring those as a combination of both.

By having multiple items in a box, you take the chance of scoring lower because the score was averaged. My 2 cents.

Winner, winner!!!

In a KCBS contest we're supposed to judge "as presented by the cook". If it's in the box I'm gonna look at, touch, feel, taste & judge it. That's the danger of using multiple cuts in the box - if the sliced pork is great (9) and the chunks are great (9) and the pulled is a mushy mess (6) how do you think I should score it?

[MoKanMeathead]

I agree with Mike...about any category. I have tried wings with thighs, burnt ends with slices, pulled/chunked/slices of pork, and even once spares and BBs. You never know if one of the presentations did good and the other bad, both good, neither good, etc.

I do know good teams that present all of the above (except the spares/BBs) and do well consistently. But when you get a bad (or good) score you really don't know which presentation was good or bad.

[MoKanMeathead]

Oh and BTW NorthwestBBQ...good looking chicken box above!!

[billygbob]

If it's KCBS, the judge is supposed to be scoring those as a combination of both.

Technically, there is no rule for that. It is not mentioned in the CD played (or rules read) during the judges meeting. Some reps will mention that cooks can turn in more than one cut/style in a single entry and recommend the judge sample each but that its not required. And there is no ruleon how to combine the relative merits of the different cuts/styles.

It would be nice for all parties if there was some clear KCBS guidelines/rules around this matter, but the KCBS BOD is the KCBS BOD and I don't expect any useful details in my lifetime. Sigh....

Edit: OBTW - The wings and wing/thigh combos get a nice thumbs-up from me.

[Bentley]

Would anyone mind providing some guideance on the reasoning behind this. Do judges actually deduct based on which piece you provide?

Thanks!


Are they supposed to, no...Do I think a fair amount do, yes.

And at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, sure would be nice to see something other then a candy coated thigh now and then...

[boogiesnap]

Are they supposed to, no...Do I think a fair amount do, yes.

And at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, sure would be nice to see something other then a candy coated thigh now and then...


it'd be nice to cook one too...but alas.

[NorthwestBBQ]

Oh and BTW NorthwestBBQ...good looking chicken box above!!

Thank you, sir.

[The Giggler]

Are they supposed to, no...Do I think a fair amount do, yes.

And at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, sure would be nice to see something other then a candy coated thigh now and then...


That seems to be the general consensus among both teams and judges. Guess it might be time to pony up and roll the dice.

Any cut cooked perfectly, presented well, that taste great, has a shot on any given day. Not only wings have done well for some, so have boneless skinless breasts.

[Badgeman]

I'm not sure how the judges feel, but holy smokes, those photos make me hungry!

[Sweet Breathe BBQ]

Best we scored with wings in KCBS chicken was a 4th at Harpoon last year, out of 42 teams. I don't have the exact pic of those but this is a similar looking box.

[bbq.tom]

Technically, there is no rule for that. It is not mentioned in the CD played (or rules read) during the judges meeting. Some reps will mention that cooks can turn in more than one cut/style in a single entry and recommend the judge sample each but that its not required. And there is no ruleon how to combine the relative merits of the different cuts/styles.

It would be nice for all parties if there was some clear KCBS guidelines/rules around this matter, but the KCBS BOD is the KCBS BOD and I don't expect any useful details in my lifetime. Sigh....

Edit: OBTW - The wings and wing/thigh combos get a nice thumbs-up from me.

I agree! No "rules" about sampling ALL types of meat in the box; however, I heard the "recommendation" during my CBJ training and heard it again when my wife took her CBJ training, as well as hearing it every once in a while when receiving instructions at competitions. I believe that a team wouldn't put the meat in the box if they didn't want it sampled for score.

I've only seen one occassion during my judging time where a team entered a wing and a thigh in the box (actually 6 wings and 6 thighs).

[Big Mike's BBQ]

Sorry I lost this thread and did not see any of the responses until today. I was not hiding or ducking the responses. I do not like to name names and give secrets, especially when some teams are holding cooking classes and charging money for them. I have never been to one of the classes so I cannot say for sure but I know one team that does lollipop wing drummies that does not teach it at their class or more people on this forum would know about turning in wings. I do not have any problems telling people what I do. I do not turn in wings I turn in skinless thighs and a boneless chicken breast. I do not compete much but have had a couple of scores in chicken and have also finshed about third from last with the same turn in. Am going to change just because I have had one bad showing, NO. Everyone talks about the luck of the draw as to what table you get, but when someone tries something new and it judges bad they want to dump it right away. Why?? Maybe it scored bad because it hit the wrong table. I know that it is not cheap to experiment with new things at contests also. I pacticed my chicken many times before entering a contest and I know it tasted and looked good before I did it. If something does not taste right or looks bad I ain't gonna turn it in. Plus while you are practicing get your friends to come taste it post pictures here for all to view. Practice something new at a contest but don't turn it in and give some samples out to your competition friends and see what they think. *steping down off soap box* thanks for listening.

Big Mike

[ammoore]

I fancy myself as making a pretty tasty wing also...and recently turned them in at back to back contests. They rec'd the exact same score at both contests right down to the last decimal.

Now for the kicker...got a comment card in the second contest where a judge actually recommended that I "should use a different cut of chicken"
How is that for bias? Hey it's just one judge but I'm just sayin

[boogiesnap]

Best we scored with wings in KCBS chicken was a 4th at Harpoon last year, out of 42 teams. I don't have the exact pic of those but this is a similar looking box.

chicken that looks as good as sweetbreathe's should clearly be successful every time.
i mean really, if it tastes 1/2 as good as it looks i still don't understand why it can't be consistently rewarded.

with that said, this is still going in my box:

54970

[Muzzlebrake]

Technically, there is no rule for that. It is not mentioned in the CD played (or rules read) during the judges meeting. Some reps will mention that cooks can turn in more than one cut/style in a single entry and recommend the judge sample each but that its not required. And there is no ruleon how to combine the relative merits of the different cuts/styles.

this is fast becoming one of my pet peeves...... there is no rule that says a judge is to try each thing put in the box. If it is not "technically" a rule, its not a rule. Is it so far off base to think that there may be more than one style of that meat in the box so there is enough for each judge to pick the one they prefer?

I have no idea why a reps are mentioning/suggesting it no more than I understand why some reps feel obliged to inform judges how thick a "good" slice of brisket is supposed to be.

Now please understand that i do not put anything into a box i do not want to be judged. To that end when you hear a judge make a comment like "that pork was good but i marked them down because I am not a fan of slices" is annoying when then why did he take them? If I put 12 thighs in a box are the judges going to each try 2?

I recently had a judge give me a hypothetical saying I may be DQ'd if I i filled the box with 6 thighs and 2 whole breasts because there was not enough breast for each judge to sample. Once again not a rule and the box would be well within the established criteria but I got the "well its not technically a rule" answer.

No offense to the judges out there and I am by no means trying to judge bash but with so much of judging being subjective in nature (appearance, taste and tenderness) it is a bit aggravating when the few objective standards that are in place are not adhered to.

[ParkAvenue_2]

this is fast becoming one of my pet peeves......

I recently had a judge give me a hypothetical saying I may be DQ'd if I i filled the box with 6 thighs and 2 whole breasts because there was not enough breast for each judge to sample.

I agree with you Sean. That's crazy. If the judge wanted to offer and opinion that he thought it was a bad idea to only include two pieces of the breast in the box, thats one thing, but to indicate it is possibly grounds for DQ, when you've stuffed 8 pieces of chicken in a box. :doh:

I'll be attending a judging class in a few weeks, and I intend to bring a few of the topics in this thread up in the class. Will be curious how they are handled.