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patkline9999
06-09-2011, 06:50 PM
Practice pork today ... would love to hear your comments ... meat only please, I realize the shortcomings of the box and garnish (off center , slanted meat rows, unbalanced etc) ... but how's the meat look ? Score? (meat appearance?)http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m532/patkline9999/BUTT6-8-11V2.jpg

patkline9999
06-09-2011, 06:51 PM
I just took a look at my own picture ... top right slices look fatty ... no fat is there ... that's glare ..

emohn
06-09-2011, 07:03 PM
Why slices? We slice and present money muscle, along side of pulled bits. Seems to be the norm around here.

MilitantSquatter
06-09-2011, 07:36 PM
My first reaction was too much bark to interior meat ratio...

Hard to assess... 7, maybe an 8.

mobow
06-09-2011, 09:25 PM
meat looks good. Arrangement needs work. keith

goodbuddiesbbq
06-09-2011, 09:33 PM
7 if it was straightened and a few more natural looking chunks and a light polish - it would be an 8.

Smoke'n Ice
06-09-2011, 09:44 PM
If you have to slice it, it is not done. 6 - No chunks, no pulled, just sliced. Most judges do expect variety.

Bentley
06-09-2011, 10:22 PM
If you have to slice it, it is not done, I will have to remember that one.

An 8.

patkline9999
06-09-2011, 10:33 PM
Actually , I didn't HAVE to slice it. I just DECIDED to slice it because that is what I like. I cooked it to 195 internal and let it rest, covered for 1 hour , it went to 198 while resting so I guess it wasn't technically resting but still cooking and I would think that it was done for sure ...yes??..but anyway ..went to 198 then came down a little, I untented it and pulled it apart, sliced the money muscle and then I saw that other great piece of bark and just decided to slice that and see what the experts here on this forum thought. Just an experiment and I guess I learned that slicing is frowned upon here but I can tell you that I have scored pretty good with only slices in the boxes so far this year but no walks yet so maybe that's where I'm blowing it... I know when I judge, I ABSOLUTELY HATE having to eat those stringy pulled bits and judges are instructed to taste every type of meat offered in the box so I am forced to eat that stringy stuff ...yuuccch.

bigdogphin
06-10-2011, 12:49 AM
It looks dry. It might not be dry but it looks dry and has been sitting for a while. Color looks great though.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-10-2011, 07:55 AM
If you have to slice it, it is not done. 6 - No chunks, no pulled, just sliced. Most judges do expect variety.

not done?????really??????? I guess you call it the pulled pork catagory as well..

Sawdustguy
06-10-2011, 08:03 AM
If you have to slice it, it is not done. 6 - No chunks, no pulled, just sliced. Most judges do expect variety.

I sure hope you don't judge a competition that I am entered in. The judges are not supposed to expect anything. They are supposed to judge what is presented. This is a prime example of what not to do when judging.:mad:

To the original poster I give you an 8....

Brewmaster
06-10-2011, 08:34 AM
I like it on the angle. I would remove the top left and the bottom right piece. I would like to see more of the meat. And maybe a glaze would be good. I love the very defined smoke ring. Show it off.

I give it an 8

Cheers,
Nate

Lake Dogs
06-10-2011, 08:54 AM
The pork itself has a BEAUTIFUL and appetizing color to it. The bark has a warm rich color that isn't black and screams come eat me. I know you *cant* judge smoke ring, but to many if it doesn't have a smoke ring it's not as appetizing. Yours has a wonderful smoke ring and displayed proudly.

HOWEVER, to add to the overall appeal I would suggest that many across the nation like to see more pieces/chunks and less slices and/or bark. For example, I'm in a region that you'd rarely if ever see slices; pork sliced is considered undercooked. Maybe the sliced pork presented (not in your case above, but hypothetical) is undercooked, or isn't. The problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and in this case the beholder is giving you a score... Your region may be very different. Going back though, I suggest mixing it up. The sliced money muscle looks very appetizing. Add in a bunch of pulled chunks about the size of your thumb+- and you should be good to go.

I'd probably have scored this either a 7, possibly an 8 on appearance. However, I think the 9 is in there with a little adjustment.

bignburlyman
06-10-2011, 08:58 AM
I like it on the angle. I would remove the top left and the bottom right piece. I would like to see more of the meat. And maybe a glaze would be good. I love the very defined smoke ring. Show it off.

I give it an 8

Cheers,
Nate

What Nate said. I like the bark, but you may want to showcase the face of one of the slices. I know, I know, we don't judge the smoke ring:doh:, but I truly believe many judges (not me, I am a great judge:rolleyes:) will score higher, even if subconsiously. I think lining up the slices a little better would help also. Based on picture I would probably score a 7. At the table might get an 8.

Lake Dogs
06-10-2011, 09:10 AM
The judges are not supposed to expect anything.

Humbly I'll disagree a little on this. We differ on semantics a little. I mean,
in chicken a judge should expect an entry to be chicken and an appetizing chicken entry. An appetizing chicken entry will look pretty much polar opposite of what an appetizing brisket entry would look like.

In MANY regions around the country, yes, pork sliced is considered undercooked. It just is.

If you saw a piece of say chicken that appeared undercooked, would it get your 9? Brisket undercooked, would it get your 9 in appearance? I doubt it.

However, we all know that whether it's undercooked or not has nothing to do with appearance itself. BUT, if it appears undercooked (to the beholder), that's certainly part of their view of the appetizing nature of it. It's up to them to score it as such.

patkline9999
06-10-2011, 10:25 AM
OK... but does it LOOK undercooked? (I don't think so) Or do some people (judges?) just assume that it is sliced because it is undercooked? ...that seems like a pre-assumption by the judges... I thought appearance was appearance ... undercooked / overcooked etc. would be covered in the Taste and Tenderness scores ...am I correct on my thinking?

Lake Dogs
06-10-2011, 10:46 AM
OK... but does it LOOK undercooked? (I don't think so) Or do some people (judges?) just assume that it is sliced because it is undercooked? ...that seems like a pre-assumption by the judges... I thought appearance was appearance ... undercooked / overcooked etc. would be covered in the Taste and Tenderness scores ...am I correct on my thinking?

Yes, in our region of the country it looks undercooked. But that's actually not my point at all.

All you've shown is bark. That's a pretty bark, for certain. You've not really showcased all of the wonders that is your wonderful pork there. You've showcased one and only one aspect. Showcase the others.

Very simply, to each individual judge at your table, the appearance score is simply how appetizing the entry is in front of them. The appearance of tenderness is all part of the enticement; actual tenderness being the next judging category obviously. Classic is to look a judges review brisket; you'll see hundreds of "looks dry". That's not part of appearance score, but to them it's part of what makes it appetizing. Like I said: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The one judge at the table that loves sliced pork and loves bark is going to be all over this entry with his/her 9. The others, however, may have different opinions. To me, sliced pork isn't nearly as appealing and appetizing (in my eye) as a nice mixture, or just straight pulled pork chunks.

Sawdustguy
06-10-2011, 10:49 AM
Humbly I'll disagree a little on this. We differ on semantics a little. I mean,
in chicken a judge should expect an entry to be chicken and an appetizing chicken entry. An appetizing chicken entry will look pretty much polar opposite of what an appetizing brisket entry would look like.

In MANY regions around the country, yes, pork sliced is considered undercooked. It just is.

If you saw a piece of say chicken that appeared undercooked, would it get your 9? Brisket undercooked, would it get your 9 in appearance? I doubt it.

However, we all know that whether it's undercooked or not has nothing to do with appearance itself. BUT, if it appears undercooked (to the beholder), that's certainly part of their view of the appetizing nature of it. It's up to them to score it as such.

Hance,

I see your point. My point is that the Judges should not mark down the entry because they expect to have some pulled or chunks in the box. If it is marked down because it looks dry or undercooked thats one thing but don't mark it down because you expect chunks or pulled instead of slices.

Guy

Lake Dogs
06-10-2011, 10:54 AM
Hance,

I see you point. My point is that the Judges should not mark down the entry because they expect to have some pulled or chunks in the box. If it is marked down because it looks dry or undercooked thats one thing but don't mark it down because you expect chunks or pulled instead of slices.

You're right, and I mean dead on, about marking down in any score because it doesn't have chunks in it (or it has only chunks in it and no sliced meat, money muscle or not).

It's just a beauty in the eye of the beholder thing. You really cant tell a person what sets their appetite on fire and what doesn't. The entry either does, or it doesn't.

More than anything, in this great example, I think they've WAY undersold their pork with only slices and really only displaying the bark (even though it's a great bark).


It's like the chicken appearance score. You'll see judges say all the time "they aren't the same size" or "not all trimmed exactly alike". Where is that in the rules? It's not. Again, beauty in the eye of the beholder. They're not wrong; it's just not what set their appetite on fire. For me, I'm the opposite. If I'm judging chicken I'd like the entry to look like there's appetizing chicken in there. To me perfectly symetric red balls aren't as appetizing as nicely barbecued red chicken chunks... Neither of us are wrong. I've seen entries come across in chicken that were more brown and somewhat dull. Honestly, my first thought was "are those potatoes?". On this table, that day, 4 of the judges gave it 9's in appearance, the other 2 of us gave it 7's. It just wasn't appetizing (for chicken). If we'd been in a potato category, fine, they were nice looking taters, but as chicken goes I actually gave them a huge benefit of the doubt, because my initial thought was 5 or 6.

Smoke'n Ice
06-10-2011, 07:51 PM
Knowing the consistency of the pork butt, if you can get slices that look that good and hold together as you work with them and place them in the box, my first thoughts are, that will be one chewy piece of meat. As a judge, I would now be predisposed to that judgment for the entry. We eat with our eyes first.

All that I am saying is, don't let some ahole like me have that as a first impression of the entry. With the addition of some pulled or chunks, it would demonstrate that the pork appears to be properly cooked, it would not take tasting the product, which is now cold, with a negative first impression, to demonstrate the tenderness.

Don't fool yourself; it would take a very strong entry to overcome a negative first impression, as most people, subconsciously, have problems admitting that they were wrong.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-10-2011, 08:15 PM
Knowing the consistency of the pork butt, if you can get slices that look that good and hold together as you work with them and place them in the box, my first thoughts are, that will be one chewy piece of meat. As a judge, I would now be predisposed to that judgment for the entry. We eat with our eyes first.

All that I am saying is, don't let some ahole like me have that as a first impression of the entry. With the addition of some pulled or chunks, it would demonstrate that the pork appears to be properly cooked, it would not take tasting the product, which is now cold, with a negative first impression, to demonstrate the tenderness.

Don't fool yourself; it would take a very strong entry to overcome a negative first impression, as most people, subconsciously, have problems admitting that they were wrong.


so you can tell tenderness with your eyes? I took a judging class 2 years ago and found out 7 (out of 80) were vegitarians...they said they could tell what bbq tasted like by looking at it (good or bad).

my question is..does the box look good...to me it does, the other judging criteria follow after my score for apperance goes down.

landarc
06-10-2011, 09:00 PM
It sure looks good to me, I want to eat it. I would lose the first end piece, that would show the meat, making it even more desirable.

bmanMA
06-10-2011, 10:38 PM
It sure looks good to me, I want to eat it. I would lose the first end piece, that would show the meat, making it even more desirable.

Agreed, lose them ends. Don't hide your meat. (heh)

Smoke'n Ice
06-10-2011, 10:49 PM
so you can tell tenderness with your eyes? I took a judging class 2 years ago and found out 7 (out of 80) were vegitarians...they said they could tell what bbq tasted like by looking at it (good or bad).

my question is..does the box look good...to me it does, the other judging criteria follow after my score for apperance goes down.

Good examples of visual indications of tenderness are found in brisket. If the slices are thin or thick leads one to prejudge the tenderness. Thin is undercooked and thick is overcooked! Right or wrong that is the first impression.

I have seen a lot of my scores that start out as a 6 in appearance and be straight 6's from one judge and straight 9's from another. The point I am trying to make is "judges will follow their first impression of an entry."

Look back on your own scores and observe how many deviate more than one point plus or minus from the appearance score. Tell me they were not subconsciously prejudged!

deguerre
06-11-2011, 11:55 AM
From the pic, the color and bark are beautiful (And I must admit, I do so love my bark). But...to me it LOOKS like a roast, and not pulled pork. This is a regional/cultural impression based on my own personal expectations of what pulled pork SHOULD look like. It would influence my first impression, and my expectation would be that it's going to be chewy. Being human, that first impression is difficult to sway, not that it can't be. Tasting would after all belie the visual. In fact, the tasting score may benefit for far outpassing the expectation of what that first bite should be like. Admittedly, I am no judge or competitor and I DO live deeply within the MBN region...being in Memphis and all.:-D

indianagriller
06-11-2011, 01:13 PM
From the pic, the color and bark are beautiful (And I must admit, I do so love my bark). But...to me it LOOKS like a roast, and not pulled pork. This is a regional/cultural impression based on my own personal expectations of what pulled pork SHOULD look like. It would influence my first impression, and my expectation would be that it's going to be chewy. Being human, that first impression is difficult to sway, not that it can't be. Tasting would after all belie the visual. In fact, the tasting score may benefit for far outpassing the expectation of what that first bite should be like. Admittedly, I am no judge or competitor and I DO live deeply within the MBN region...being in Memphis and all.:-D


But it is not called the "pulled pork" category, it is pork category. I know its probably been stated, but as i understand as a judge you are to judge the meat as presented by the cook. not based on what you expect it to be.

deguerre
06-11-2011, 01:31 PM
But it is not called the "pulled pork" category, it is pork category. I know its probably been stated, but as i understand as a judge you are to judge the meat as presented by the cook. not based on what you expect it to be.
Correct, pork and not "pulled" pork. But the definition of what "Pork" itself is does vary from region to region. And also correct. If I were a judge, I would strive to be as open minded as possible for each individual presentation with no expectations (I'm actually considering taking the MBN class). But, again, because of where I am, I'd be surprised to be presented with just slices. Who knows? My reaction may be one of "My, that's creative".

The_Kapn
06-11-2011, 01:36 PM
I seldom comment on these threads but:

KCBS a solid 9
FBA a solid 10 (without the garnish of course).

To me, it just looks tempting and I want a taste.
And to me that is what it is all about.

TIM

Lake Dogs
06-11-2011, 05:34 PM
Actually, it's not just "pork", but pork butt. In my region if a butt is cooked properly it's aaalllllmooost unsliceable because it's too darned tender (not mushy, but getting close) and only pulls apart. I've judged whole hog and pork shoulder in MBN comps... I dont know how many times, but between the two I've probably sat at 120 or more judging tables. I think I've seen sliced come across the table perhaps 4 or 5 times total of the 600+- entries. Lets just call it a nice even 1%. It's not a "pulled pork" category; it's a pork shoulder category. For on-site one of the key things we look for is for the bone to pull cleanly from the meat. Pork, cooked like this, is almost impossible to slice. Ergo if it's sliced, to us, it's not as enticing and appetizing as it could be because it triggers visions of under-cooked.

To the pork presented here, the bark is as beautiful as any I've seen in a long time. But, all sliced signals to me that it's undercooked. It just does. If they had nice pulled chunks on the side it would signal that they've cooked it great and they went to extra hard lengths to slice the money muscle. It would be more appetizing with chunks, IMHO.

To me it's a solid 7.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-11-2011, 06:51 PM
Actually, it's not just "pork", but pork butt. In my region if a butt is cooked properly it's aaalllllmooost unsliceable because it's too darned tender (not mushy, but getting close) and only pulls apart. I've judged whole hog and pork shoulder in MBN comps... I dont know how many times, but between the two I've probably sat at 120 or more judging tables. I think I've seen sliced come across the table perhaps 4 or 5 times total of the 600+- entries. Lets just call it a nice even 1%. It's not a "pulled pork" category; it's a pork shoulder category. For on-site one of the key things we look for is for the bone to pull cleanly from the meat. Pork, cooked like this, is almost impossible to slice. Ergo if it's sliced, to us, it's not as enticing and appetizing as it could be because it triggers visions of under-cooked.

To the pork presented here, the bark is as beautiful as any I've seen in a long time. But, all sliced signals to me that it's undercooked. It just does. If they had nice pulled chunks on the side it would signal that they've cooked it great and they went to extra hard lengths to slice the money muscle. It would be more appetizing with chunks, IMHO.

To me it's a solid 7.

again..can you tell the tenderness of any meat by looks...or could the competitor just have a really sharp knife? my point is your not judging apperance...your judging tenderness which is done AFTER the apperance score, correct?..does the box look good?


p.s. it is the pork catagory (by name) not the pork butt catagory...that would eliminate the "shoulder" entry.

deguerre
06-11-2011, 07:34 PM
Again, we're dealing with regional/cultural differences here. Pork, whether it be butt, picnic, or whole shoulder is, to me, "pulled pork". On apearance, expectations do exist. To someone growing up or living where I'm from, sliced or chopped, in appearance, suggests that the meat has not been cooked properly. It looks how it looks. And to me, it would look undercooked. Again, tasting could negate first impressions but the appearance score is AFTERALL a first impression judgement.
KCBS, MBN and FBN are all using diffirent critirea obviously so differences are to be expected.

Smoke'n Ice
06-11-2011, 08:12 PM
If you read some of the previous threads, there were teams that would pull one or two at a 185 temp, remove the money muscle to be able to "SLICE" and return the balance to the pit to finish cooking as the balance of the butt muscles are still somewhat chewy and not done enought to pull or chunk. This was what caused all the fuss about parting and returning to heat in the first place.They now cook multiple butts, pull the best money muscle and throw the meat from that butt away or take it home and finish cooking it. The other butts are cooked to a pulling temp.

Hence my statement about if it can be sliced it aint done. There are multiple threads on this and other forums that support the position.

Putting just sliced in a box raises a big red flag, no matter how good it looks. Bark can be produced with smoke and rub containing sugar, killer smoke ring can be produced with Tender Quick, green wood or propane gas, pulled can only be produced when the butt is cooked to the point that slicing is problematic.

I got lucky on one of my cooks by having money muscle on two butts that were firm enough to slice with an electric knife. There is no way "a really sharp knife" would have sliced them.

Bentley
06-11-2011, 09:32 PM
Actually, it's not just "pork", but pork butt. .

No, actually it not just pork butt if you cook a picnic...So I do not agree, it is basicilly any part of the pork shoulder. It is so easy to hide the fact that shoulder is under or over cooked by just looking at a pile of "pulled" pork, that I cant follow yours guys line of reasoning at all.

Lake Dogs
06-11-2011, 09:38 PM
> again..can you tell the tenderness of any meat by looks...

No, but I can tell you that IF it appears dry, or tough (ala. less tender) then it's not whetting my appetite and the appearance score will reflect it. This is dead on what the appearance score is about.

> or could the competitor just have a really sharp knife?

They should. I know we have many. I compete as well as judge.

> my point is your not judging apperance...

Actually, all we've tried to say in darned near every post is that it appears to be not tender therefore it's less appetizing.

> your judging tenderness which is done AFTER the apperance score,

I know this, and we're talking about appearance and frankly how appetizing it is or isn't, and if it appears tough it's not appetizing.

> correct?..

You bet.

> does the box look good?

7 is good. Not great. It looks like it's tough. It doesnt say "you absolutely have to come take a bite" to me. Welcome to appearance; it's subjective, and apparently in pork it's very regional.



> p.s. it is the pork catagory (by name) not the pork butt catagory...that would eliminate the "shoulder" entry.

MBN is pork shoulder. Butt only is DQ. Separation of butt and picnic is DQ.

KCBS is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic, or whole shoulder.

Lake Dogs
06-11-2011, 09:40 PM
No, actually it not just pork butt if you cook a picnic...So I do not agree, it is basicilly any part of the pork shoulder. It is so easy to hide the fact that shoulder is under or over cooked by just looking at a pile of "pulled" pork, that I cant follow yours guys line of reasoning at all.

B,

Very simply it's about what is and isn't appetizing. In our region if you slice or chop it's just not going to be as appealing as it could be. It's that simple.
That's our only point.

Respectfully,

Bentley
06-12-2011, 12:29 AM
So a pile of pulled cat food is more appealing?

deguerre
06-12-2011, 06:08 AM
So a pile of pulled cat food is more appealing?
This doesn't even dignify a reply.

Dale P
06-12-2011, 06:25 AM
7 - above average.

rcorun
06-12-2011, 07:54 AM
You ask for the meat alone and u get all other comments. I like it --maybe could have little bit of gloss to it 8 or 9 CBJ

abangs
06-12-2011, 09:04 PM
Farkin' amen to this. I think it should be a requirement to be a certified judge you should have to cook at least one event with a cook team.....just as an observer. I've been competing for a little over 2 years and finally took the KCBS judges class and judged an event two weeks ago. I was SHOCKED at how many judges have not competed before. They have zero idea of the work that goes into these boxes.

I sure hope you don't judge a competition that I am entered in. The judges are not supposed to expect anything. They are supposed to judge what is presented. This is a prime example of what not to do when judging.:mad:

To the original poster I give you an 8....