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View Full Version : Pork box critique please ...


SmokinGuitarPlayer
05-28-2011, 09:05 PM
Looking for constructive critique of this pork turn in box. ..thanks in advance.
FB/SGP

http://www.ceramicgrillforum.com/download/file.php?id=585

bignburlyman
05-28-2011, 09:18 PM
At first glance the meat looks a little haphazard in the box. Is it slices in the middle and along both edges and chunks along the front and back? It doesn't look like there are enough chunks for every judge to have a sample. Outside of that the meat looks good, like it is moist and has really good bark. Studying the picture I would say the garnish at the front is maybe covering the front part of the meat. You want the meat to stand out. At the table with the short time to look I would probably score an 8.

SmokinGuitarPlayer
05-28-2011, 09:21 PM
in the middle it's a pile of chunks with some bark showing, some smokering showing, some meat showing, on sides are 6 slices of money muscle, lightly sauced, and top and bottom are 6 pulled portions, lightly sauced. so 3 x 6 pieces of money muscle and pulled, more of the "barky chunks" in the middle.

Slamdunkpro
05-28-2011, 10:07 PM
Based solely on the photograph - 5

It's just not appealing to me - the meat is very haphazard looking, almost like you tossed in a handful of scraps. The sauce looks really viscus and uneven and the money muscle slices on the right look dry. Box looks unbalanced with more meat on the left than on the right.

MilitantSquatter
05-28-2011, 10:21 PM
Take this as constructive criticism.....

They look more like pork nuggets... seem too evenly cut. Sliced is one thing, but if your going for pulled chunks, it needs some more character with slight variances in the chunks, the positioning/arrangement...As well, the color too varied.. some are pink, some whitish/gray, some brown, some blackish.. needs more uniformity on that side of it.

goodbuddiesbbq
05-28-2011, 10:24 PM
It just looks out of sorts...no real flow to the box...my eyes couldn't focus on anything and couldn't (quickly) determine what i was looking at to make it appetizing to me.

bbqbull
05-28-2011, 10:55 PM
I only see medallions, cubes and 2 pieces of pulled pork in a box that looks like it is in a huge confusing mess laid on bed of greens.
Were you pressed for time when you filled your box?

landarc
05-29-2011, 12:19 AM
In general, I see the concept you were going for, but, it looks disorganized (as said above) and the pulled portions are a little tough to see visually. The slices of money muscle seem uneven and there is a variation that makes it looks like some does not have bark.

Bentley
05-29-2011, 12:58 AM
It's either a fricken meat contest or it is not...I like nuggets...9

Dale P
05-29-2011, 07:14 AM
I agree with Vinny on this one.

Sawdustguy
05-29-2011, 07:23 AM
It's either a fricken meat contest or it is not...I like nuggets...9

The score should be made only on how appealing the meat looks not how orderly it is placed. I like Slamdunckpro's answer simply stating that it did not look appealing. Thats the way it should be.

Balls Casten
05-29-2011, 08:24 AM
I would create seperation between the different pieces. I think what you were trying to do is right, just not executed correctly. Creating seperation between the different pieces will make it look a little more orderly. And a putting green will make the meat stand out.

Crude photoshop ...

Dale P
05-29-2011, 09:19 AM
The score should be made only on how appealing the meat looks not how orderly it is placed. I like Slamdunckpro's answer simply stating that it did not look appealing. Thats the way it should be.

Looking orderly, well positioned, same size pieces, ect, is part of the game. Thats just the way it is.

Sawdustguy
05-29-2011, 10:45 AM
Looking orderly, well positioned, same size pieces, ect, is part of the game. Thats just the way it is.

Granted but it's not supposed to be. The few times I have judged I gaged my mark on how much I want to take a bite. Maybe that was wrong of me.

bam
05-29-2011, 02:42 PM
I'll give you a 6

thillin
05-29-2011, 05:42 PM
Not enough for judges to take any home :icon_blush:

ssbbqguy
05-29-2011, 05:51 PM
It's not an appealing box for several reasons. But not a five or a nine and whoever says that hasn't cooked or judged enough in my opinion. The pieces are way too random and placed in a way that's confusing. The meat ranges from dry to ugly in color, and way too confusing .Either sauce or don't, not here and there. If your wanting higher scores, you must have a presentation that draws the eyes, not repels them. What seems to score better is uniform pieces of say, money muscle(six minimum), then six pieces of say, pulled or chunks and I add more to my boxes. But by looking more like you understand the rules, meaning six of this and six of that. it should allow more focus on meat quality. Hope that helps, it takes tons of practice and most important, honest critique to improve. Steve.

jbrink01
05-29-2011, 06:09 PM
It's all been said. Just not appealling, nor is it "organized" or symmetrical in any fashion. 7 at best / likely a 6. Sorry.

Bentley
05-29-2011, 06:22 PM
It's not an appealing box for several reasons. But not a five or a nine and whoever says that hasn't cooked or judged enough in my opinion. Steve.

I just finished judging my 28th KCBS contest yesterday and have been competing for the last 9 years, and I gave it a 9...Please let me know when I have enough contest judging or competing, so I will know when I can start giving 9's again...Gald to see there are other's as arrogant as me on this site..

Slamdunkpro
05-29-2011, 09:52 PM
It's not an appealing box for several reasons. But not a five or a nine and whoever says that hasn't cooked or judged enough in my opinion. The pieces are way too random and placed in a way that's confusing. The meat ranges from dry to ugly in color, and way too confusing .Either sauce or don't, not here and there. If your wanting higher scores, you must have a presentation that draws the eyes, not repels them. What seems to score better is uniform pieces of say, money muscle(six minimum), then six pieces of say, pulled or chunks and I add more to my boxes. But by looking more like you understand the rules, meaning six of this and six of that. it should allow more focus on meat quality. Hope that helps, it takes tons of practice and most important, honest critique to improve. Steve.
And you would give it a ......what? In your own words, it's not appealing, too random, confusing, and ugly. Please give us your rating.

Slamdunkpro
05-29-2011, 09:57 PM
I just finished judging my 28th KCBS contest yesterday and have been competing for the last 9 years, and I gave it a 9...Please let me know when I have enough contest judging or competing, so I will know when I can start giving 9's again...Gald to see there are other's as arrogant as me on this site..
No offense to the OP (I'm not picking on your box) or to Bentley, but if I was the rep and you gave that box a 9 I'd ask you to justify it. If that box is a 9 in your mind, what's a 6, or a 5?

Serious question - I'm not trying to start a flame war.

Bentley
05-29-2011, 10:42 PM
No offense to the OP (I'm not picking on your box) or to Bentley, but if I was the rep and you gave that box a 9 I'd ask you to justify it. If that box is a 9 in your mind, what's a 6, or a 5?

Serious question - I'm not trying to start a flame war.

Funny, never had a rep ask me to justify a 9, but it is a valid question…Maybe more should. I am sure I will show a bias, but I am willing to take that risk, as we are told to use subjective & objective criteria.

I like chunk’s, I believe I have a much better chance of determining whether the meat has been cooked properly, and even though this is a presentation score, my bias towards chunks is coming into play, I make no bones about that, there is your subjective criteria. These pieces have some very nice bark, the sauce is not heavily coated on it and it makes it appealing to the eye, it looks moist, well cooked an I want to try it. I like the arraignment, it does not look haphazard and the green leafs of lettuce accentuate it well.

You gave a 5, hope you would have the courtesy to let the team know why when you are sitting at the tables.

I guess if I am gonna err on my judging I am gonna err on the side of the teams, maybe you have a different judging approach. Your gonna judge someone down for more meat on one side of the box? Really? If that is true, anyone who runs for the BOD and wants to eliminate Appearance from judging has my vote!

Slamdunkpro
05-29-2011, 10:56 PM
Funny, never had a rep ask me to justify a 9, but it is a valid question…Maybe more should. I am sure I will show a bias, but I am willing to take that risk, as we are told to use subjective & objective criteria.

I like chunk’s, I believe I have a much better chance of determining whether the meat has been cooked properly, and even though this is a presentation score, my bias towards chunks is coming into play, I make no bones about that, there is your subjective criteria. These pieces have some very nice bark, the sauce is not heavily coated on it and it makes it appealing to the eye, it looks moist, well cooked an I want to try it. I like the arraignment, it does not look haphazard and the green leafs of lettuce accentuate it well.

You gave a 5, hope you would have the courtesy to let the team know why when you are sitting at the tables.

I guess if I am gonna err on my judging I am gonna err on the side of the teams, maybe you have a different judging approach. Your gonna judge someone down for more meat on one side of the box? Really? If that is true, anyone who runs for the BOD and wants to eliminate Appearance from judging has my vote!
Fair enough, I gave my reasons for a 5 in my post, and they're considerably more than just "unbalanced".

I find it interesting that here we have one box with 2 experienced CBJ giving valid reasons (under KCBS rules) for both a 9 and a 5.


Now we know why cooks drink:laugh:

Bentley
05-29-2011, 11:08 PM
http://www.ceramicgrillforum.com/download/file.php?id=585


Maybe you will explain to me how this box has more meat on one side then the other?

boogiesnap
05-29-2011, 11:34 PM
i betcha it looked really good in person, and bently has seen enough boxes he realizes that.
but, what's up with the 1 pulled peice up top? or the heavily sauced peice right in the middle with the no sauce peice right next to it?
i think you're feedback is more about the box as a whole than the presentation alone.

it's presented unevenly, and thusly will taste unevenly, and score unevenly. some judges will get sauce, some not, etc.

give the judges a little bit of everything to taste. i think...as long as it's good.

SmokinGuitarPlayer
05-29-2011, 11:42 PM
Ok...well this was a very interesting thread and I thank all who gave me a critique. That box was our turn in at Salisbury and I am looking for ideas to improve so I will take all your comments to heart except maybe the one that didn't think there was enough food for the judges to take home...I hope that one was "tongue in cheek" as it would be a real shame if there were judges out there that give lower scores for that reason (none to take home).

And I'm still a little wierd on all this fuss over the garnish. I probably need to pay more attention to that.

So the bottom line ...Pork in the Park, Salisbury Md. ... that box placed #39 out of 116 teams that competed in that category.
Scores for appearance 9,8,7,8,8,8

I personally would give it a 7 or 8 I think based on the picture. It did look better in person I think.

FB/SGP

Bentley
05-30-2011, 12:02 AM
Wow, not a 5 or a 6 in the group, you must be very disappointed! I guess these judges need to step aside too, untill they have more experience as they obviously have no idea how to judge!

Enough harshness, I hope those that thought it was a 5 or 6 will examine their judging critria, 6 judges say you are anywhere from 2 to 4 points below where you should be, maybe tracking judges is a good thing?

ssbbqguy
05-30-2011, 12:26 AM
I've been away, so here is my score. 6 at my scorecard. No arrogance here, just experience. I thought I did leave a score earlier, but I am tired. I've have judged all over the country and cooked in most major bbq assoc., not that I have to qualify this to anyone. I take judging very seriously and don't like or tolerate any judge that feels he or she knows anything about today's judging before they enter the building or tent. In other words, some judges, and you should know who, have preconcieved opinions on what are nines and what are fives. No in between. Every item should be judged on it's own merit against the best you ever had. Not what you wanted that day. In other words don't take more than one number value away for more than one infraction. That means don't give fives because you don't like it personally. Make one number change for each item you don't like or like about the turn-in. Old judge classes taught start at 9, now 6. Either way be fair to the cook that spends all the time, effort and money that expects to be judged fairly. I firmly believe in refresher classes and if you think a good CMJ doesn't need to stay current in rules, get out.There is no room for over blown pig headed fools that think they know everything when they don't. Oh, and Bentley, get up around 600+ contests under your belt and then look me up.That's not arrogance, just alot of hard work to have the experience that I do. I mean to offer honest, fair advice to those that actually want it, not argue with people about things that are petty. Steve.

Bentley
05-30-2011, 01:58 AM
Wow, KCBS has been around 26 years, that means you have done 23 contest a year for the last 26 years, you have basiclly judged every other weekend for the last 26 years in a row, you are dedicated...Maybe in 600 more you will be closer to the norm?

daedalus
05-30-2011, 10:16 AM
I look at two things when I am judging appearance. 1st, and most importantly, is how much do I want to dive into that box. In your box, the meat does look tasty, has a nice shine, and good bark. It makes me think that I would not mind eating what is in there. That, to me, puts it in the 7 to 8 range. For a nine, I want it to give me the overwhelming NEED to snatch the box from the TC and go in head first.
Secondly is how much care it looks like the cook used in creating the box. This is where your box falls a bit short in my opinion. I see where you were going with the slices around the sided, but I don't think there were quite enough of them to pull off the look. If there were more slices, they could be tiled and create a more defined border. I agree with many of the other posters that the chunks in the middle seem to be a bit disorganized. I think that takes away from the presentation in this case. Also, the pulled pork sort of looks like an afterthought. Maybe if it were chunks in the upper half of the box created by the rings, and then pulled strips in the bottom half it would help make it more organized. Just a thought.
Personally, my favorite look when presenting 3 types of pork is to go with three columns. Maybe the first is the chunks, laid out in a neat line from top to bottom. The Sliced in the middle with the slices sort of put back together and sauced so they look like the original muscle, and them pulled on the 3rd column arranged similarly to the first line.
Based on the picture I would give it a 7, but I can certainly understand that it may have looked a bit better in person and gone with an 8. It seems to me like the scores you got were in the ballpark.

Slamdunkpro
05-30-2011, 10:20 AM
and this is why it's hard to judge from photographs. My 5 came from looking at the image on my laptop. The box looks better on my large calibrated desktop monitor. Based on the desktop view I'd go to a 6.

PorkQPine
05-30-2011, 10:39 AM
For all the teams, reading this is a great learning experience. Now you know how you get 6's and 9's for the same turn-in. For me, this is not a 9 or an 8, there can be valid reasons for a 6 or a 7 and seeing the turn-in personally will make the difference. I guess this is a good reason for continuing education requirements for judges.

thillin
05-30-2011, 01:13 PM
I look at two things when I am judging appearance. 1st, and most importantly, is how much do I want to dive into that box. In your box, the meat does look tasty, has a nice shine, and good bark. It makes me think that I would not mind eating what is in there. That, to me, puts it in the 7 to 8 range. For a nine, I want it to give me the overwhelming NEED to snatch the box from the TC and go in head first.
Secondly is how much care it looks like the cook used in creating the box. This is where your box falls a bit short in my opinion. I see where you were going with the slices around the sided, but I don't think there were quite enough of them to pull off the look. If there were more slices, they could be tiled and create a more defined border. I agree with many of the other posters that the chunks in the middle seem to be a bit disorganized. I think that takes away from the presentation in this case. Also, the pulled pork sort of looks like an afterthought. Maybe if it were chunks in the upper half of the box created by the rings, and then pulled strips in the bottom half it would help make it more organized. Just a thought.
Personally, my favorite look when presenting 3 types of pork is to go with three columns. Maybe the first is the chunks, laid out in a neat line from top to bottom. The Sliced in the middle with the slices sort of put back together and sauced so they look like the original muscle, and them pulled on the 3rd column arranged similarly to the first line.
Based on the picture I would give it a 7, but I can certainly understand that it may have looked a bit better in person and gone with an 8. It seems to me like the scores you got were in the ballpark.

For conversation, (Not arguing, just questions. I have a smile on my face.:becky:)
Why take away a point because you dont like the layout? If the meat that is there looks " tasty, has a nice shine, and good bark. It makes me think that I would not mind eating what is in there", why mark the 7 instead of the 8? But judges shouldn't mark off for what's not in the box.

Maybe KCBS should specify box layouts. Other sactioning bodies do. (personally I feel that it evens the field. No "signature" layouts)

landarc
05-30-2011, 01:51 PM
As the OP said, I always find the focus on the garnish as a little odd, I don't care for the look of lettuce, but, there does seem to be an awful lot of focus on things like garnish, spots of sauce on the foam container and how much/little/even the saucing is. Of course, there do have to be standards, and I really dislike a piece of aluminum foil in a styrofoam box, that is even less appetizing.

thillin
05-30-2011, 03:39 PM
..and I really dislike a piece of aluminum foil in a styrofoam box, that is even less appetizing.

But it forces you to judge the appearance of the meat. :thumb:

Bentley
05-30-2011, 05:34 PM
But it forces you to judge the appearance of the meat. :thumb:

What a Novel idea...as I am told every time I judge it is a Meat contest!

bignburlyman
05-31-2011, 08:31 AM
As the OP said, I always find the focus on the garnish as a little odd, I don't care for the look of lettuce, but, there does seem to be an awful lot of focus on things like garnish, spots of sauce on the foam container and how much/little/even the saucing is. Of course, there do have to be standards, and I really dislike a piece of aluminum foil in a styrofoam box, that is even less appetizing.

I only commented on the garnish as covering the front of the meat, which may block a judge from getting the best view in the short amount of time at the table. I personally try my best to not take the garnish into consideration. I believe that I would not even notice if someone used kale instead of curly leaf lettuce. :thumb:

bignburlyman
05-31-2011, 08:53 AM
Looking for constructive critique of this pork turn in box. ..thanks in advance.
FB/SGP

http://www.ceramicgrillforum.com/download/file.php?id=585

in the middle it's a pile of chunks with some bark showing, some smokering showing, some meat showing, on sides are 6 slices of money muscle, lightly sauced, and top and bottom are 6 pulled portions, lightly sauced. so 3 x 6 pieces of money muscle and pulled, more of the "barky chunks" in the middle.

I would like to ask the group and SmokinGuitarPlayer about the terminology used for the different styles of meat in the box. I may be wrong about the terms I use, so correct me if I am. I consider the pieces at the front and back of the box as chunks---they are bigger pieces that are simply pulled off the butt by hand. Chunks to me are at least the size of a thumb, and can be bigger. Shreds are smaller pieces that are separated by hand, usually smaller than a pencil and 1 in long or so. Chopped is just what it says, small pieces chopped up with a knife. I consider anything that is cut with a knife into pieces to be sliced. In my mind this box has chunks at the front and back, sliced money muscle on the sides, and sliced pieces in the middle. Upon close study of the picture I can see a few pieces in the middle that weren't sliced so I would call them small chunks.

I am simply asking if I need to change how I classify the different pieces, I still think the meat looks good enough to eat!:clap2:

Hershey BBQ Guy
06-05-2011, 11:08 AM
From the pic I would go with a 7. Nothing out of the ordinary regarding the way it is presented. Some folks take a lot of time to slice / position their contents.

I have gotten some very plain pork turnin's this year. One recently looked like chopped pork scooped up in a ice cream scoop and plopped in the box. (It did tase OK.. but it was hard to give them a great appearance score.)

CBQ
06-06-2011, 12:15 PM
This is a great thread, because the comments look just like a lot of scores - all other the place. Some thought the box was "disorganized" and others thought the pieces were "too even." PorkQPine hit it right on the head to explain why we can get 6s and 9s for appearance on the same box.

Nevertheless, some teams put together boxes that always seem to score well, and I think the key here is to find something that looks appealing to everyone. Obviously, this box appealed to some people and not others, so it needs reworking. I thought Balls Casten's photoshop of the same meat on a parlsey bed did indeed make it look better.


(Some people say pork is the easiest category, but it's the one I have had the most trouble getting consistent scores on, probably because my pork boxes look like this too. :rolleyes:)

Lake Dogs
06-06-2011, 01:40 PM
I agree with Daedalus to a point in that basically it's appealing/appetizing, but not in the 9 range. Then, and this could very easily be regional, sliced pork to me sends a message that it's under-cooked. I'm not pre-judging it, but it's less appealing and less appetizing to me being sliced vs. pulled. For me it's a 7; not bad but not great either. I did like the bark, and I liked the color, particularly the variation, some meat showing a nice smoke ring, others none... I could understand the 6's if this box just really doesn't "do it" for someone, and I can understand the 8's if they're not as put-off by the sliced pork. However, 9's? I dont see it. 5's? No way this is that bad.