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kcbswtf
05-18-2011, 09:55 AM
Why have garnish? Does anyone think it is possible to cheat with garnish? example: if i were to talk to say 15 cbj's offer them cold hard cash to judge my box and give it 9's across the board. I know you are thinking that won't affect anything...but if I tell those 15 judges that my boxes will have green leaf as a base and then i will bunch parsley in top right and bottom left. If my boxes crosses any of those judges then I could cheat theoretically.

Why not have no garnish and a exact amount of portions. example 6 pieces of brisket instead of filling the boxes. Every box in the competition should look exactly the same regardless of the category for every team , every box. Another question i am pondering is Do judges rate your food bad if you do NOT fill the box. I think that teams spend tons of cash to do these competitions and that doesn't mean that the teams are there to feed the judges, their families, dogs, and cats for months at a time. Why do judges come to comp's with coolers the size of mini fridges. Also without standardization of the portions one could actually cheat that way. example I am going to put all my pulled pork in top portion of box and my money muscle at the bottom wrapped with parsley. if portions were controlled and layout of meat in boxes is controlled then there can be no cheating. I am just trying to get rid of unnecessary expenses (cooking tons of food to stuff a box full so I can please an entire judges family or so that judge doesn't have to buy food for a month), and wasting my time messing with garnishes.

bover
05-18-2011, 10:32 AM
I smell a troll...

musicmanryann
05-18-2011, 10:33 AM
It sounds like, and your seemingly anonymous username suggests, you have some serious beef with KCBS style competitions. If you don't like the competition format of KCBS, find another sanctioning body to compete under or start your own. Garnish is part of KCBS and is part of its history and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

There are countless ways somebody could "theoretically" cheat. That does not mean we should put in place every imaginable stop-gap to prevent it.

The strategy of filling a box with meat is simple--when done properly it looks better. It is not to get the judge excited about filling his/her cooler, it looks better and has been proven by winning cooks and passed down accordingly. And give me a break about saving money. The bare minimum amount you have to cook is one brisket, one pork shoulder, one rack of ribs, and six pieces of chicken. This by itself is more than enough to amply fill a box with meat.

BTW-There is no requirment for garnish. If you don't want to mess with it, you don't have to. :thumb:

mobow
05-18-2011, 10:42 AM
my cat doesn't like BBQ

Fatback Joe
05-18-2011, 10:43 AM
BTW-There is no requirment for garnish. If you don't want to mess with it, you don't have to. :thumb:

Then you could cheat by telling the judges that you will be the one with no garnish. :roll:

Bbq Bubba
05-18-2011, 10:49 AM
.......

BearCat
05-18-2011, 11:02 AM
"I would prefer even to fail with honor than to win by cheating"
- Sophocles

RangerJ
05-18-2011, 11:26 AM
I can't say that cheating or attempting to cheat has ever crossed my mind. They handed me the rules, I read them and did what I was supposed to.

I'm relatively new but I've done KCBS, IBCA and FBA, I followed the same MO each time. Read the rules, execute, turn in.

Nor have I ever wondered what happened to my box of most times mediocre meat after judging. NOR do I care.

Each association is different, if I don't like one, I'll find a competition sanctioned by the other.

If I want a conspiracy theory I'll google "the grassy knoll" or listen to the nut jobs that think we destroyed the world trade centers.

I do this for fun.

Lake Dogs
05-18-2011, 11:32 AM
^^^ While I do think that garnish is silly, I agree with you fully RangerJ. That's pretty much the reason that we dont do a number of the KCBS competitions around this area. I'll just save the money and participate in the MBN one right around the corner.

It's KCBS; they allow garnish. Get over it. Garnish, or dont. It's your choice. Exercise it (your choice). I do (exercise my choice), and I compete elsewhere.

BBQchef33
05-18-2011, 11:45 AM
guy, the garnish debate has been here about as long as the grassy knoll, but that doesnt mean evenyone has come across it, and yes on the other hand, this may just be pot stirring. Albeit, the OP does hit on several controversial points discussed in the past. I'll bite.

KCBSWTF, search the forum(use the general seach at the bottom) and you will see all of your points have considerable discussion and feedback in our archives.

so, i will give my .02 cents(again)

Cheating: (Marking the box with telltale garnish), well if its obvious, the competitor will get caught. However, the same theories can be used by sayin I will be the one with the last slice of brisket being shorter, or the top left thigh will have a smudge.

Fill the box?: Face it full boxes look better. If u use garnish, a 6 piece box still looks better than an ungarnished box with alotof white space. BUT, A good judge will NOT mark down for lack of garnish, as per KCBS rules. Human nature however most likely gets int he way. So if your going the no garnish route in KCBS you better be on your game and make that box look great.

Cooler judges: Whatever. Im not going there. its legal, they exisit, whatever.

Standard portion.. TOTALLY DISAGREE. The requirement is 6.. thats all. I will always try to put in more. reasons being, 1 - i dont want the last judge to get a reject, he wants a choice too. 2 - the table captain should have a sample. If for any reason, he can make a judgement call if he sees something is awry and call over the reps.

3 - theres lots of volunteer folks in the judging tent that like to graze too.


now,questions for you.. have u been competing long, and are you a judge too?

Funky D
05-18-2011, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the .02 Chef... I have been wondering the same, but the fear of the "troll witch hunt" was keeping me from posting. *grin*

I was on a BBQ team for a few years, and all we ever did was IBCA sanctioned events. I remember the first time, hearing all the rules and asking questions. "Our ribs have to be laid in the box in a particular way? We have to have exactly how many pieces of brisket?". After thinking about it, it all made sense. Everyone's food needs to be judged just on the food. Good enough for me.

KCBS is similar, with just a few minor differences... (Garnish, portions, chicken is allowed to be... "altered").

The poster is probably a troll at some level (screen name FAIL) but honestly, I have some of those same questions...

"A good judge will NOT mark down for lack of garnish, as per KCBS rules."

That just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not saying it HAS to, or that they have to change the rules, but as Chef points out... it's kind of odd. Why not allow people to furnish their own boxes?

Either way, it's a new format, and one that my new team is going to have to adapt to. Just hoping to hear some encouraging, or insightful words, rather than a wave of "If you don't like the game, don't play.".

Cheers! :)

Sawdustguy
05-18-2011, 01:06 PM
guy, the garnish debate has been here about as long as the grassy knoll, but that doesnt mean evenyone has come across it, and yes on the other hand, this may just be pot stirring. Albeit, the OP does hit on several controversial points discussed in the past. I'll bite.

KCBSWTF, search the forum(use the general seach at the bottom) and you will see all of your points have considerable discussion and feedback in our archives.

so, i will give my .02 cents(again)

Cheating: (Marking the box with telltale garnish), well if its obvious, the competitor will get caught. However, the same theories can be used by sayin I will be the one with the last slice of brisket being shorter, or the top left thigh will have a smudge.

Fill the box?: Face it full boxes look better. If u use garnish, a 6 piece box still looks better than an ungarnished box with alotof white space. BUT, A good judge will NOT mark down for lack of garnish, as per KCBS rules. Human nature however most likely gets int he way. So if your going the no garnish route in KCBS you better be on your game and make that box look great.

Cooler judges: Whatever. Im not going there. its legal, they exisit, whatever.

Standard portion.. TOTALLY DISAGREE. The requirement is 6.. thats all. I will always try to put in more. reasons being, 1 - i dont want the last judge to get a reject, he wants a choice too. 2 - the table captain should have a sample. If for any reason, he can make a judgement call if he sees something is awry and call over the reps.

3 - theres lots of volunteer folks in the judging tent that like to graze too.


now,questions for you.. have u been competing long, and are you a judge too?

Hey, why you calling me out? I didn't start this thread.:eusa_clap:-D

redneck cooker
05-18-2011, 02:48 PM
Its easy to fix this problem, dont cook KCBS, cook all Texas bbq, we dont garnish the box ever. But if your gonna cook in a sanctioning body then why not follow the rules?:confused:


I have just started coking KCBS over the last year and dont really like the garnish, you just have to roll with it...once you get use to it it anit rally that bad or time consining.....Im just sayin:becky:

Alexa RnQ
05-18-2011, 02:50 PM
...Thorn? Buddy, is that you?

Rookie'48
05-18-2011, 02:56 PM
Dear (suspected) Troll;

IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.

redneck cooker
05-18-2011, 02:59 PM
Dear (suspected) Troll;

IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.



:popcorn:...great comment Rookie, and I agree...:becky:

QansasjayhawQ
05-18-2011, 03:22 PM
Dear (suspected) Troll;

IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.
Thank you!

And one more two cents worth -

If there was an entry with obviously out of the ordinary, easily identifiable garnish there would soon be questions of marking.

Plus - the money's not all that much anyway. Compared to how much you spend throughout the season competing, the financial cost of cheating alone would not pay off, even if you did bribe the judges.

And I agree with Rookie48 - I don't think you could find enough judges who would NOT turn you in for the attempted bribe.

Only rookie judges carry the uncool, huge-arsed coolers and they learn quick to be more modest. A lot of the judges don't even take any samples home.

Arlin_MacRae
05-18-2011, 03:44 PM
Dear (suspected) Troll;

IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.

Well put, my friend!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Funky D
05-18-2011, 04:15 PM
IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.

Excellent point Rookie. Worth noting though is the following... (Since I got to see it at the TAFR Houston Wild Game cookoff just last weekend...)

When you get into large fields (124 teams was the count last weekend), you have to have a LOT of judges. The first round of judging is usually recruited from any visitors that are non-cook team personnel. If a table of 6 judges can sample say... 15 dishes, and there were 5 categories, that's ..

248 judges. Less because all teams don't compete in all 5 categories (Ribs, Chicken, Brisket, Seafood, Wild Game, fwiw), but still, assume a lot of standers-by are going to be judging.

(they only judge the first round, final table were all acclaimed IBCA judges)

The point being, if you had say, 30 guests hanging around or visiting your cook when they (desperately) were trolling for judges... it's very possible you could have a lot of people on the table, looking for your eats.

Just sayin... not all judges are TRUE IBCA/KCBS judges. In big arenas, eaters get you to the final table, judges hand out prizes. It doesn't take cash to influence eaters...

chambersuac
05-18-2011, 04:19 PM
While I would be thrilled not the have to do garnish (mine suck) I do them because I want to score higher. If garnish was THAT much of a problem for me, I wouldn't compete in KCBS.

Good discussion and input so far. If you WERE looking to start a flame war, I'm glad no one has taken you up on it.

I just wish Parsley Lady would do my boxes for me when my wife stays home. Ron???

:)

BRBBQ
05-18-2011, 04:24 PM
I judged a few contest and one reason I take a cooler is I couldn't eat 6 thighs, 6 ribs, 6 samples of beef and 6 samples of pork. I see no sence in wasting the food, so I take it home. Now you dont have to put any garnish in the BOX, just leave it out. And I've seen turn in box's look like the PIC below, so you decide if it should be full of food.
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/123bret/dad.jpg

Q-Dat
05-18-2011, 04:40 PM
I judged a few contest and one reason I take a cooler is I couldn't eat 6 thighs, 6 ribs, 6 samples of beef and 6 samples of pork. I see no sence in wasting the food, so I take it home. Now you dont have to put any garnish in the BOX, just leave it out. And I've seen turn in box's look like the PIC below, so you decide if it should be full of food.
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/123bret/dad.jpg



WOW I'm just gonna assume that box got all 9's on appearance lol!

Arlin_MacRae
05-18-2011, 04:55 PM
WOW I'm just gonna assume that box got all 9's on appearance lol!

If it didn't get a nine it wouldn't because of the garnish or lack of!

redneck cooker
05-18-2011, 04:58 PM
:crazy::becky:That pic is hilarious!!!!:tape:

deepsouth
05-18-2011, 05:02 PM
how much money would you have to have to be assured you could bribe 15 judges and how much money would you win if you did?

these questions must be answered.

Muzzlebrake
05-18-2011, 07:29 PM
I judged a few contest and one reason I take a cooler is I couldn't eat 6 thighs, 6 ribs, 6 samples of beef and 6 samples of pork. I see no sence in wasting the food, so I take it home. Now you dont have to put any garnish in the BOX, just leave it out. And I've seen turn in box's look like the PIC below, so you decide if it should be full of food.
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/123bret/dad.jpg

thats my bacon box for next week!

where did you get that??
:becky:

BRBBQ
05-18-2011, 08:37 PM
thats my bacon box for next week!

where did you get that??
:becky:
That was a brisket turn in and I'd rather not say which comp, but it didn't get 9's! I wish they had the comment cards back then.

Lake Dogs
05-18-2011, 08:54 PM
While I would be thrilled not the have to do garnish (mine suck) I do them because I want to score higher. If garnish was THAT much of a problem for me, I wouldn't compete in KCBS.

Good discussion and input so far. If you WERE looking to start a flame war, I'm glad no one has taken you up on it.

I just wish Parsley Lady would do my boxes for me when my wife stays home. Ron???

:)

Is it cheating if someone else's wife "does your parsley" while your wife is away?

:shock::eusa_clap

redneck cooker
05-18-2011, 08:58 PM
Is it cheating if someone else's wife "does your parsley" while your wife is away?

:shock::eusa_clap



heck no thats ingenious!:heh::clap2:

Lake Dogs
05-18-2011, 09:03 PM
^^^ If Arnold Schwartzenager agrees, does that make it wrong?

chambersuac
05-19-2011, 11:17 AM
You guys are too much. Or not enough. Not sure. :)

kcmike
05-19-2011, 06:00 PM
^^^ If Arnold Schwartzenager agrees, does that make it wrong?

Yea, but could Chuck Norris kick Arnie's ass? That's what I want to know.

kcbswtf
05-20-2011, 10:14 AM
sorry to offend the KCBS apologists but I went to my first contest 2 weeks ago ( I am not a competitor or judge) but my uncle is. I observed the contest and the rules because i am interested in doing competitions and I am trying to understand why have this professional competitions with obvious issues. And thanks for all the "if you don't like KCBS don't do it." that is inspiring and very adult like wawananabooboo

P.S. You know that when America was being colonized and the we were getting taxed out are butts and everyone in America knew it was wrong we stood up and fought for what was right.

bover
05-20-2011, 10:26 AM
P.S. You know that when America was being colonized and the we were getting taxed out are butts and everyone in America knew it was wrong we stood up and fought for what was right.

OK then. If you don't like it, become a KCBS member and take the issue to the BoD. Complaining about it on an anonymous discussion board is not going to accomplish anything. I would strongly recommend however that you rack up a bit more experience than just observing one contest before proceeding.

Lake Dogs
05-20-2011, 10:33 AM
sorry to offend the KCBS apologists but I went to my first contest 2 weeks ago ( I am not a competitor or judge) but my uncle is. I observed the contest and the rules because i am interested in doing competitions and I am trying to understand why have this professional competitions with obvious issues. And thanks for all the "if you don't like KCBS don't do it." that is inspiring and very adult like wawananabooboo

P.S. You know that when America was being colonized and the we were getting taxed out are butts and everyone in America knew it was wrong we stood up and fought for what was right.

My response was quite serious. If you dont like KCBS there are plenty of other barbecue sanctioning bodies, and most of them dont allow garnish of any kind. Being from Georgia myself I participate in MBN, FBA, and GBA sanctioned contests. Look around.

The only childish response that I've seen so far is yours above.

It's a contest, with rules. If you want to play the game, play it, but know that it's THEIR game. Play theirs, play someone elses, or make your own sanctioning body with your own rules.

chambersuac
05-20-2011, 10:34 AM
P.S. You know that when America was being colonized and the we were getting taxed out are butts and everyone in America knew it was wrong we stood up and fought for what was right.

Seriously? Are you saying that YOU are in the position to say that the KCBS is wrong and you are right? And...are you kidding....you liken this issue to the issues that led to the Revolutionary War? Incredible.

But, I agree, if you feel so strongly, work for changing it, not just complaining about it behind some screen name that shows your bias from the git-go.

JayAre
05-20-2011, 10:45 AM
sorry to offend the KCBS apologists but I went to my first contest 2 weeks ago ( I am not a competitor or judge) but my uncle is. I observed the contest and the rules because i am interested in doing competitions and I am trying to understand why have this professional competitions with obvious issues. And thanks for all the "if you don't like KCBS don't do it." that is inspiring and very adult like wawananabooboo

P.S. You know that when America was being colonized and the we were getting taxed out are butts and everyone in America knew it was wrong we stood up and fought for what was right.

My suggestion to you is...go get certified, go judge a contest and see that you are way off base when you say that it is easy to buy a win from the judges. just aint gonna happen. there are too many eyes in the judging tent. :cop:

Now pork collars..thats another story!

ParkAvenue_2
05-20-2011, 11:34 AM
. . . if portions were controlled and layout of meat in boxes is controlled then there can be no cheating. I am just trying to get rid of unnecessary expenses (cooking tons of food to stuff a box full so I can please an entire judges family or so that judge doesn't have to buy food for a month) . . .

Be rest assured that the % of your overall KCBS comp expenses represented by the extra meat that you may choose to put in a box above and beyond the required 6 pieces is a tiny percentage.

Go do a contest or two, add up your costs, and you'll see that this issue is like a golfer complaining about having to spend 75 cents on a plastic ball marker because he doesn't like the rule that says you have to have something to mark your ball on the green if your ball is on another players line.

Forest for the trees, my friend.

Arlin_MacRae
05-20-2011, 11:52 AM
sorry to offend the KCBS apologists but I went to my first contest 2 weeks ago ( I am not a competitor or judge) but my uncle is. I observed the contest and the rules because i am interested in doing competitions and I am trying to understand why have this professional competitions with obvious issues. And thanks for all the "if you don't like KCBS don't do it." that is inspiring and very adult like wawananabooboo

So you're saying that at your first contest you actually got to go into the judges' tent and you talked to all the teams, sniffing out 'obvious issues'? Unlikely. It's more likely your uncle has never won a competition even though he makes 'the best damned barbecue in the state' or something, he's angry at the whole system, and he's taught you not to trust in it. Am I close?

kcbswtf
05-20-2011, 12:21 PM
So you're saying that at your first contest you actually got to go into the judges' tent and you talked to all the teams, sniffing out 'obvious issues'? Unlikely. It's more likely your uncle has never won a competition even though he makes 'the best damned barbecue in the state' or something, he's angry at the whole system, and he's taught you not to trust in it. Am I close?


OMG Arlin you are dead right......And you cook bbq too (what a hottie)....I did not know any super psych majors were on this forum ...maybe i should start from the beginning....my father's father's father's father's father competed in kcbs and no one in my family has ever won we have been DAL in ever competition we do....i have been crying for 42 long years praying that the garnish rule would change but it has mocked our family and continue's to mock us to this very day. I made a voe at my my dad's dad's father's death bed that I will go on forums ONLY and stir up sheet with everyone so I am just following my heart. so this is a long fighting struggle with garnish.....ooohhhh nooooo they figured me out.....my cover is blown.....Arlin is a private eye investigator/interrogator....hey Arlin did you pick all that up by the font that I type in? dang your good...

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-20-2011, 12:59 PM
OMG Arlin you are dead right......And you cook bbq too (what a hottie)....I did not know any super psych majors were on this forum ...maybe i should start from the beginning....my father's father's father's father's father competed in kcbs and no one in my family has ever won we have been DAL in ever competition we do....i have been crying for 42 long years praying that the garnish rule would change but it has mocked our family and continue's to mock us to this very day. I made a voe at my my dad's dad's father's death bed that I will go on forums ONLY and stir up sheet with everyone so I am just following my heart. so this is a long fighting struggle with garnish.....ooohhhh nooooo they figured me out.....my cover is blown.....Arlin is a private eye investigator/interrogator....hey Arlin did you pick all that up by the font that I type in? dang your good...

I have been watching this thread and I must it has taken several different turns. My first thought was to chime in and say "hey give kcbswtf a break" we as brethren are here to help and grow bbq. I personally dont care for garnish but its in the rules so I use it, but you dont have to. I read alot of sarcasim in your posts , and maybe thats just who you are, again no biggie to me. This forum sees alot of pot stirers and I belive thats were most are comming from in response to your o.p. Your screen name does put alot of posters on the defense/offense. Im not gonna jump on a soap box and say play nice, but you have to admit you get alot more flies with honey then viniger. good luck..keep posting.

Slamdunkpro
05-20-2011, 01:34 PM
This has to be a gimmick account - maybe it's Merl?:becky:

QansasjayhawQ
05-20-2011, 03:36 PM
I observed the contest and the rules because i am interested in doing competitions and I am trying to understand why have this professional competitions with obvious issues.
Once you've taken the judging class and judged a couple dozen competitions, you will better understand that, even though there are issues, the KCBS system does a really, really good job of providing a system that ameliorates many of these issues.

There's also the condition of being a decent human being that helps these competitions go well because (most of) the people involved, KCBS reps, the cooks and their team members, the organizers, volunteers and the judges all adhere to a higher level of existence. They are all some of the nicest and most fair-minded people you would ever want to meet.

Try becoming involved so that you get to know it very well. You will be glad you did.

http://www.kcbs.us

Meat Burner
05-20-2011, 08:00 PM
Brothers and Sisters, I apologize this kcbswrf troll jerk is from my home state. He is an inexperienced nobody that just joined the forum and is just trying to cause trouble. He obviously, has not experience or knowledge about competition bbq events..Quit answering any more of his posts and maybe he will go away...as he should. Just a thought friends.

chambersuac
05-20-2011, 08:50 PM
You know, I am trained to "put the best construction" on things - explaining them in the nicest manner. So, with regard to the O.P. I must remain silent.

Meat, no worries, we don't judge ya by the folks who come out of your state. I currently live in IL, where our ex governors make the license plates. :) LOL

Bunny
05-21-2011, 12:48 AM
The reason we have garnish is one reason and one reason only. Gary Wells who was the founder of KCBS (along with Carolyn Wells and Rick Welch) said that garnish is the one thing that separates us from the other bbq organizations. THAT's why we still have garnish today. It's basically a respect issue. I don't see a darn thing wrong with that. :heh:

Go ahead and put your pork in the corner and your parsley wrapped around your entry meat. I seiously doubt you would find any judges accepting your bribe in the first place. Too many good judges out there!:laugh:

Bunny

BBQchef33
05-21-2011, 03:14 AM
ok.. done.

A question was asked..

Answer or dont anwer..

bad posts get reported via the 'report post' button. Leave it up to our moderator staff to weed things out..

drop the sarcasim from both sides, and the name calling, everyone knows thats not what we are about here.

thread goes civil, or goes away.


sorry, but im at a contest and cant type with smilies and happy faces, but get back on track folks.

Muzzlebrake
05-21-2011, 11:37 AM
Why have garnish? Does anyone think it is possible to cheat with garnish? example: if i were to talk to say 15 cbj's offer them cold hard cash to judge my box and give it 9's across the board. I know you are thinking that won't affect anything...but if I tell those 15 judges that my boxes will have green leaf as a base and then i will bunch parsley in top right and bottom left. If my boxes crosses any of those judges then I could cheat theoretically.

Why not have no garnish and a exact amount of portions. example 6 pieces of brisket instead of filling the boxes. Every box in the competition should look exactly the same regardless of the category for every team , every box. Another question i am pondering is Do judges rate your food bad if you do NOT fill the box. I think that teams spend tons of cash to do these competitions and that doesn't mean that the teams are there to feed the judges, their families, dogs, and cats for months at a time. Why do judges come to comp's with coolers the size of mini fridges. Also without standardization of the portions one could actually cheat that way. example I am going to put all my pulled pork in top portion of box and my money muscle at the bottom wrapped with parsley. if portions were controlled and layout of meat in boxes is controlled then there can be no cheating. I am just trying to get rid of unnecessary expenses (cooking tons of food to stuff a box full so I can please an entire judges family or so that judge doesn't have to buy food for a month), and wasting my time messing with garnishes.

Dude I'm sorry of you got kind of the harsh treatment, its just that this is an old, old discussion that most of us have heard time and time again. Here is my take on your comments/questions.

Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. I prefer to spend my energy on ways to improve within the confines of the rules. It much easier for me to practice a parsley box than to rig a contest.

The easy answer to your question about garnish is, it looks better. Plain and simple. There is something about the contrasting colors of the meat and the garnish that makes your presentation "POP". Make 2 boxes side by side one with one without and see for yourself. Understandablely garnish can be a PIA and is an aquired skill. It is however, for better or worse, an important skill that you willl need to master if you wish to compete at a high level in KCBS contests.

We all understand your wanting to keep cost low, but honestly garnish is not that big of an expense at all, often teams will split cases of parsley tha cost less than $30. If you think that the KCBS garnish is a chore and expense take a look at an MBN event where they garnish whole cookers, and set out china plates and silver. KCBS garnish is very limited in its scope and only certain things can be used, unlike the open garnish that many of the other Sanctioning Bodies use.

While the idea of judges packing coolers "the size of mini fridges" so "the judge doesn't have to buy food for a month" seems to be a topic of hot debate, i can't see how what I put in a box will help them out with that. Even when we do put extra meat into the box, it's an extra piece or two, not pounds of extra stuff. In a KCBS contest for the most part teams fill boxes with some well trimmed pieces that are rarely more than a bite or two. While most teams will cook more than one brisket or butt, the amount of food cooked is far less than some others contests that require whole hogs or half chickens.

I hope this helped...:thumb:

Lakeside Smoker
05-21-2011, 11:57 AM
Dude I'm sorry of you got kind of the harsh treatment, its just that this is an old, old discussion that most of us have heard time and time again. Here is my take on your comments/questions.

Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. I prefer to spend my energy on ways to improve within the confines of the rules. It much easier for me to practice a parsley box than to rig a contest.

The easy answer to your question about garnish is, it looks better. Plain and simple. There is something about the contrasting colors of the meat and the garnish that makes your presentation "POP". Make 2 boxes side by side one with one without and see for yourself. Understandablely garnish can be a PIA and is an aquired skill. It is however, for better or worse, an important skill that you willl need to master if you wish to compete at a high level in KCBS contests.

We all understand your wanting to keep cost low, but honestly garnish is not that big of an expense at all, often teams will split cases of parsley tha cost less than $30. If you think that the KCBS garnish is a chore and expense take a look at an MBN event where they garnish whole cookers, and set out china plates and silver. KCBS garnish is very limited in its scope and only certain things can be used, unlike the open garnish that many of the other Sanctioning Bodies use.

While the idea of judges packing coolers "the size of mini fridges" so "the judge doesn't have to buy food for a month" seems to be a topic of hot debate, i can't see how what I put in a box will help them out with that. Even when we do put extra meat into the box, it's an extra piece or two, not pounds of extra stuff. In a KCBS contest for the most part teams fill boxes with some well trimmed pieces that are rarely more than a bite or two. While most teams will cook more than one brisket or butt, the amount of food cooked is far less than some others contests that require whole hogs or half chickens.

I hope this helped...:thumb:

Well said, Sean.

Also, am I the only one that actually likes garnish?

-Mike

Muzzlebrake
05-21-2011, 05:06 PM
I'm learning to like it.....I've always been more of a framer than finish guy but I'm learning

Smokin' Hicks
05-21-2011, 06:34 PM
KCBSWTF has one very very good point.....GARNISH SUCKS!!!!!.....and the reason it sucks is cause i cant use whatever i want....if garnish is not really suppose to effect the score then let me use my skill and garnish the box with whatever i want, would make garnishing a lot more fun and the boxes much more interesting....maybe some nice tomato roses, pepper crowns, basil rosets, maybe use some Belgium endive stuff like that make it interesting at least instead of that damn monotonous parsley putting green, its just BORING

worthsmokin
05-21-2011, 09:01 PM
KCBSWTF has one very very good point.....GARNISH SUCKS!!!!!.....and the reason it sucks is cause i cant use whatever i want....if garnish is not really suppose to effect the score then let me use my skill and garnish the box with whatever i want, would make garnishing a lot more fun and the boxes much more interesting....maybe some nice tomato roses, pepper crowns, basil rosets, maybe use some Belgium endive stuff like that make it interesting at least instead of that damn monotonous parsley putting green, its just BORING


Is your nephew KCBSWTF????:boxing:

Smokin' Hicks
05-21-2011, 10:32 PM
c'mon bro.....i agree with him on ONE thing and thats the response i get? is he your nephew? well no hes not smart ass i was just making a point about the garnish and other options that can be done with it....... just using my brain and thinking of other options for garnish....sorry to offend you with the whole thinking part worthsmokin...i am just bored with the whole parsley thing and would like to see other things allowed to garnish with.....we do not as teams get dictated to how to prepare or cook our food so why should we be dictated to about garnish? if we gotta do the whole garnish thing lets have some fun with it and use our brains a bit by allowing other things to garnish a box with besides parsley...i'm not being an idiot by thinking about this stuff stillsmokin so cut be some slack....you should try the whole thinking thing it really doesnt hurt that much, and if you smell somthing burning when you start to think just ignore it it will go away eventually after you think about other things a couple times

MilitantSquatter
05-21-2011, 11:00 PM
c'mon bro.....i agree with him on ONE thing and thats the response i get? is he your nephew? well no hes not smart ass i was just making a point about the garnish and other options that can be done with it....... just using my brain and thinking of other options for garnish....sorry to offend you with the whole thinking part worthsmokin...i am just bored with the whole parsley thing and would like to see other things allowed to garnish with.....we do not as teams get dictated to how to prepare or cook our food so why should we be dictated to about garnish? if we gotta do the whole garnish thing lets have some fun with it and use our brains a bit by allowing other things to garnish a box with besides parsley...i'm not being an idiot by thinking about this stuff stillsmokin so cut be some slack....you should try the whole thinking thing it really doesnt hurt that much, and if you smell somthing burning when you start to think just ignore it it will go away eventually after you think about other things a couple times

:cop:

Easy ... It was probably a harmless jab you read too much into..

Smokin' Hicks
05-21-2011, 11:44 PM
maybe its just me......but seems like every time someone tries to criticize or critique the KCBS's ways they are immediately wrong and this is the way it is if you don't like it go somewhere else....its not always about going somewhere else is you enjoy the place you are at and just want to try and make it better

worthsmokin
05-21-2011, 11:57 PM
:cop:

Easy ... It was probably a harmless jab you read too much into..

:thumb: