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Rookie'48
05-09-2011, 02:38 AM
At the St Joe contest we had the judges meeting, took the oath and were told to be back in an hour to start judging. When we got back the Rep announced that we had lost 2 CBJs & 1 Table Captain because they had been in the beer tent drinking beer (10:30 to 11:30 am). Personally, I feel that said judges should get a few months suspension at the very least.
What go y'all think?

Hub
05-09-2011, 06:49 AM
I've never heard of or experienced anything like this before but I agree that there should be some action. I don't know what Reps typically do but I'm in support of the Rep who kicked them out of the contest, anyway. FACT: You've got to have all your faculties tuned up and in fine working order to do a good job of judging and a "few beers" doesn't cut it before judging. To not be in good shape is not respecting the cooks' hard work and expectations. After the juding is over -- we'll, bottoms up!

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
05-09-2011, 08:37 AM
KCBS Judges Code of Conduct:
Rule #2 = I will not consume alcohol or other mind-altering substances prior to or during judging.

I understand that strict adherence to the Code of Conduct is necessary to maintain my certification and to qualify me for judging in KCBS Sanctioned contests.
Then they had to sign and date to be CBJ's.
There is no excuse for that as a judge or table captain.
There should be repercussions. IMHO I don't think they should be kicked out permanently from KCBS on the first offence of the rules but should definitely be restricted from near future events and permanently kicked out if subsequent offences occur.

Bunny
05-09-2011, 09:15 AM
We have turned down judges who were obviously drinking before the judging began. We have also had teams tell me they saw judges drinking before the judging process. We won't use them. It's in the rules and CBJ judges and Master judges know it.

Rich and Bunny Tuttle

Just Pulin' Pork
05-09-2011, 09:17 AM
Dave I agree! That is disappointing to hear. They are there to judge not drink!

HoDeDo
05-09-2011, 09:32 AM
First let me say, that I agree 100% with action being taken against the judges. It is in the KCBS rules very clearly, that they should not have alcohol before judging.

Having said that, at IBCA events, they bring around beer and pretzels too the judges while they are judging... So is it a huge deal? maybe not?

For KCBS, the rules are there, so they need to be followed. And I understand they were master judges. I don't think you should be able to be a master judge and make those mistakes. You have judged enough to know better. I'd pull master status, and give them a few contests to earn it back.

TN_BBQ
05-09-2011, 11:55 AM
I thought the whole reason they had the darn turn in times so early in the morning was so the judges might have a chance to stay sober. :-D It'd be way too convenient to be able to throw on the ribs at 9AM for a 3PM turn-in time. But noooo, they want our butts out there at 5AM :-D

That's why I don't like 8AM golf tee-times (something just kinda weird about drinking beer so early, and heaven knows if I'm playing golf I'm drinking beer :-P).

Please try to understand the humor.

carlyle
05-09-2011, 11:59 AM
A sad, avoidable situation that was handled correctly by the reps.

Further reaching penalties are up to KCBS. It needs to be placed in the context of how the organization deals with behavior issues for the teams.

As an organizer, the offending judges would not be back for any future contest.

As a judge, I saw an ancillary category entry that included beer in bottles. Judges scored the entry without the beer, but enjoyed them after judging was done.

Having a brew after judging is all done usually seems like an excellent idea to me as long as I am not driving.

Sledneck
05-09-2011, 12:24 PM
I read on facebook that some bbq "bitch" ratted them out ;)

Bentley
05-09-2011, 01:07 PM
KCBS Judges Code of Conduct:
Rule #2 = I will not consume alcohol or other mind-altering substances prior to or during judging.

I understand that strict adherence to the Code of Conduct is necessary to maintain my certification and to qualify me for judging in KCBS Sanctioned contests.

I was going to say, as long as they are not getting tore down in that hour is it really a factor...But...

I was not aware of the above rule. I do not drink, so it is a moot point for me. But after seeing the above rule, Reps did exactly what they should have...I think I better mosey over to the KCBS site and read the judges rules again, been too many years I guess.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
05-09-2011, 01:23 PM
My fiancee and I were fortunate enough to make a trip and take our CBJ class last year in Sugar Creek, Mo where Bunny and Rich were involved in teaching the class along with some other great KCBS folks. I came away from the class with a great sense of responsibility to both the cooks and the judging process.

Just in case anyone who is not a CBJ or Table Captain and would like to know the code of conduct for CBJ's....here it is.

KCBS Judges Code of Conduct

1. I will treat table captains, other judges, contest officials, contestants, KCBS officials and the general public with respect, and will by my Conduct, bring honor to the KCBS and the office of Certified Judge.

2. I will not consume alcohol or other mind altering substances prior to or during judging.

3. I will judge each entry on its own merits in keeping with KCBS stanards.

4. I will remain silent and maintain a neutral body language while I and others at my table are judging. Only after all judging ballots are completed and given to the table captain will I discuss the entries just judged if I or others choose to do so.

5. I will be true to my own taste and will not attempt to impose my personal taste preferences on other judges.

6. I have read and understands KCBS's Policy on Anti-Discrimination and Anti-Harassement, and I promise to fully comply with the Policy, as well as any other rules and regulations promulgated by KCBS.

Sylvie
05-09-2011, 01:30 PM
They took the oath and swore to not drink or consume alcoholic beverages prior to or during the judging.

Sledneck
05-09-2011, 01:31 PM
Some days i am hoping for a loaded judge to get my food.......

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
05-09-2011, 01:39 PM
Sledneck....
"Some days i am hoping for a loaded judge to get my food......."

Now that is funny!!!

Jorge
05-09-2011, 02:20 PM
I read on facebook that some bbq "bitch" ratted them out ;)

She rocks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lake Dogs
05-09-2011, 03:08 PM
Even IF it weren't in the rules, and taken as an oath, it's really really REALLY pathetic. We've seen a lot of judge-bashing lately here, and I've generally stood up for us/them. However, there's just no excuse for this. A few beers afterwards, fine. But before hand? Really? Ugh.

Scottie
05-09-2011, 03:11 PM
Some days i am hoping for a loaded judge to get my food.......

I am hoping for a stoner that has the munchies....

Arlin_MacRae
05-09-2011, 03:29 PM
That's about a dumb-arse thing to do and I'm glad the Rep had the stones to do the right thing. I hope all the other judges didn't have to shuffle too badly to keep things together...

BearCat
05-09-2011, 03:38 PM
We competed in an event a couple of years ago and one of the judges was walking around the cook sites until 4am and was trashed. We saw him show up for judging (not sure how he made it) but as a new team we did not know enough to report it.

I will going forward.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
05-09-2011, 03:41 PM
Personally, IMHO, I wish other sanctioning bodies of BBQ contests would adopt the no Alcohol prior to or during judging. It just seems wrong to allow people who don't take judging seriously enough to not drink prior to or during judging to participate when you consider how much time, effort and money cooks put into a contest. If you want to allow chain smoking and drunk judges you should at least let the cooks know how hammered they are so we can adjust our salt content to the point that they might taste something! Ha ha

JD McGee
05-09-2011, 04:41 PM
In the 3 short years I have been competing I have yet to see or hear about any of the PNWBA judges drinking prior to judging...the head judges up here run a pretty tight ship in that respect.

There have been other "issues" of late that I plan to bring up at an upcoming class to see if it is an acceptable behavior or not.

bigdogphin
05-09-2011, 05:03 PM
In the 3 short years I have been competing I have yet to see or hear about any of the PNWBA judges drinking prior to judging...the head judges up here run a pretty tight ship in that respect.

There have been other "issues" of late that I plan to bring up at an upcoming class to see if it is an acceptable behavior or not.

That should be interesting.

Diva
05-09-2011, 05:14 PM
I was the one that turned them in. They know I was the one because I told them I did it. Then they got crappy, took down my team name so they could write a story about me. One of them referred to me as "this" while pointing at me and telling the organizer that "this" didn't want him judging. He disrespected me by referring to me in a vengeful manner. To show no ill will, I will be respectful and use his given name, Mike Garrison, he's one of the Flying BBQ Judges.

Can't wait to see his story. How's he gonna call me a bitch for turning him in and not incriminate themselves for breaking the rules????

Arlin_MacRae
05-09-2011, 05:17 PM
"This"? I would say "that" was a drunken arsehole. Not that I know him. Can't wait to read about you in the Bullsheet, though. :)

Diva
05-09-2011, 05:22 PM
"This"? I would say "that" was a drunken arsehole. Not that I know him. Can't wait to read about you in the Bullsheet, though. :)

I don't "know" him, I know of him and what I saw, can't say I particularly care to make his acquaintance ever again. I saw them drink one beer. I'm not going to insinuate, assume or embellish. One beer. Drunk? Nah? Instant ashhole....yeah.

deepsouth
05-09-2011, 05:25 PM
I was the one that turned them in. They know I was the one because I told them I did it. Then they got crappy, took down my team name so they could write a story about me. One of them referred to me as "this" while pointing at me and telling the organizer that "this" didn't want him judging. He disrespected me by referring to me in a vengeful manner. To show no ill will, I will be respectful and use his given name, Mike Garrison, he's one of the Flying BBQ Judges.

Can't wait to see his story. How's he gonna call me a bitch for turning him in and not incriminate themselves for breaking the rules????


what is a flying bbq judge?

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
05-09-2011, 05:28 PM
Diva,

You did the right thing by turning them in!! I wasn't there but by your account, they went even further than breaking the no alcohol rule but then went on to break more rules of the code of conduct for a CBJ by speaking to you in that manner. If there were witnesses to that kind of behavior it should be addressed by the KCBS BoD and IMHO, they should be banned from judging in KCBS. Should KCBS allow them to publish one negative word about you or your team in the Bullsheet then they need to be held accountable.

Diva
05-09-2011, 05:32 PM
Diva,

You did the right thing by turning them in!! I wasn't there but by your account, they went even further than breaking the no alcohol rule but then went on to break more rules of the code of conduct for a CBJ by speaking to you in that manner. If there were witnesses to that kind of behavior it should be addressed by the KCBS BoD and IMHO, they should be banned from judging in KCBS. Should KCBS allow them to publish one negative word about you or your team in the Bullsheet then they need to be held accountable.

The organizer was standing there as well as my sister and my son, Brent, who, by the way, was NOT a happy camper. He was cooking so he got the "don't worry about it son, he's not worth getting dq'd over" look. :heh:

Diva
05-09-2011, 05:34 PM
what is a flying bbq judge?

YouTube - The Flying BBQ Judges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfnJh-CrAf4)

Arlin_MacRae
05-09-2011, 05:34 PM
I don't "know" him, I know of him and what I saw, can't say I particularly care to make his acquaintance ever again. I saw them drink one beer. I'm not going to insinuate, assume or embellish. One beer. Drunk? Nah? Instant ashhole....yeah.

You're right, I should have said he 'acted' like a drunken arsehole, but some people are just like that. He IS a famous Bullsheet person. AND a pilot. Probably a retired Air Force flier with his nose still in the air. LOL

U2CANQUE
05-09-2011, 05:45 PM
"we are good ambassadors for BBQ"......:crazy:

JD McGee
05-09-2011, 05:55 PM
That should be interesting.
Let's hope not Jesse...as I am not a CBJ...yet...what I have seen and heard may very well be a non-issue. I will bring it to Stacia's attention and follow her lead.

Diva...ya done good sister smoker!

YankeeBBQ
05-09-2011, 06:06 PM
If they consume any alcohol within 8 hours prior to flying and they get caught they won't be flying for long.

huminie
05-09-2011, 07:14 PM
YouTube - The Flying BBQ Judges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfnJh-CrAf4)

This was a very telling interview. What a couple of arrogant a-holes. I hope they get stripped of their MBJ designations and lose their column in the Bullsheet. What a disgrace and embarrassment to the sport.

Rookie'48
05-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Most states have a legal alcohol level around .09 or .08 while mine is something like .025 or .02 because I have a commercial drivers' license. I just wonder what the legal level is for flying a farkin' airplane.

Muzzlebrake
05-09-2011, 07:40 PM
4:14 mark, "its the Guinness approach to judging"

lol

huminie
05-09-2011, 07:58 PM
It does explain some of the scores we all have seen at each contest though, doesn't it? Not sure you need to fly in your drunken judges though...surely those can be found locally!

The Pickled Pig
05-09-2011, 08:20 PM
I just wonder what the legal level is for flying a farkin' airplane.

There are several restrictions with regards to alcohol and flying airplanes. No person may operate or attempt to operate an aircraft:


within 8 hours of consuming alcohol (8 hours bottle to throttle)
while under the influence of alcohol
with a BAC of .04% or greater

Just Pulin' Pork
05-09-2011, 11:03 PM
Diva as a cook thank you for pointing this out to the rep! Its crap like this that "hopefully" will make CBJ's think twice about bending the rules.

Sticks-n-chicks
05-09-2011, 11:13 PM
I was the one that turned them in. They know I was the one because I told them I did it. Then they got crappy, took down my team name so they could write a story about me. One of them referred to me as "this" while pointing at me and telling the organizer that "this" didn't want him judging. He disrespected me by referring to me in a vengeful manner. To show no ill will, I will be respectful and use his given name, Mike Garrison, he's one of the Flying BBQ Judges.

Can't wait to see his story. How's he gonna call me a bitch for turning him in and not incriminate themselves for breaking the rules????

Way to go! The arse shouldn't be allowed to write anything in the Bull Sheet if you ask me!

Jeff_in_KC
05-09-2011, 11:18 PM
Strip their arrogant asses of their Master CBJs.
Ban them from judging for one year.
Make them write an apology letter to all cooks and especially the 44 at St. Joseph.
Never publish another article of their's in the Bullsheet again.

daedalus
05-09-2011, 11:47 PM
YES!!! I AGREE!!! IN FACT, THEY SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO EAT BBQ AGAIN!!!*Sarcastic Mod*
Look, I have judged with these guys on several occasions. While I don't know them extremely well, I can say from experience that they are not really the evil demonic villains that everyone here seems to be making them out to be. Having said that, they did do something incredibly stupid, and were completely in the wrong as to how they reacted when they were called out about it. I commend you ,Diva, on doing the right thing, and I agree that they should be sanctioned, probably in the form of suspension.
I would just caution everyone to take it just a little bit easy though. They made a mistake, albeit a dumb one. I have made them before and probably will again. Also, most people are not very gracious when they get in trouble, so their attitude, while unacceptable, is not really all that unusual.
To me, this goes to show why we need to have continuing education as judges. It just might help prevent this sort of situation from happening.
As with everyone else, this is just my opinion, so feel free to take it or leave it as you like.

Sticks-n-chicks
05-09-2011, 11:58 PM
YES!!! I AGREE!!! IN FACT, THEY SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO EAT BBQ AGAIN!!!*Sarcastic Mod*
Look, I have judged with these guys on several occasions. While I don't know them extremely well, I can say from experience that they are not really the evil demonic villains that everyone here seems to be making them out to be. Having said that, they did do something incredibly stupid, and were completely in the wrong as to how they reacted when they were called out about it. I commend you ,Diva, on doing the right thing, and I agree that they should be sanctioned, probably in the form of suspension.
I would just caution everyone to take it just a little bit easy though. They made a mistake, albeit a dumb one. I have made them before and probably will again. Also, most people are not very gracious when they get in trouble, so their attitude, while unacceptable, is not really all that unusual.
To me, this goes to show why we need to have continuing education as judges. It just might help prevent this sort of situation from happening.
As with everyone else, this is just my opinion, so feel free to take it or leave it as you like.

If they would not have called a good person and name then maybe, but come on what happened to respect? If your drinking makes you do that then you have what I call a "drinking problem" You don't call a lady by any name that is not respectable. For that reason alone it makes you realize what kind of "men" they are. If you screw up, own up! They broke a rule, suck it up and say you messed up and go on about your day. Don't disrespect somebody. If your going to act like they did then you shouldn't be able to represent the BBQ community that I know.

Bentley
05-10-2011, 12:20 AM
They did screw the pooch, but for you that don't believe in 2nd chances, I guess you have never screwed the pooch... just keep picking up the stones...

Sticks-n-chicks
05-10-2011, 12:37 AM
They did screw the pooch, but for you that don't believe in 2nd chances, I guess you have never screwed the pooch... just keep picking up the stones...

I am the first to have benefited from second chances. But I think there is a higher standard that needs to be accounted for. If your just the average Joe and get pissed because you get caught...vs.. master judges that talk about and report on the "BBQ Experience" and behave in a manor unbecoming of what I consider a Master judge to be...

the worse part in my mind is that most likely nothing will happen and this will just go down as another example of a lack of policies and procedures in place from the BOD. We are not a back yard organization the time and money invested by the teams to compete and the money that is up for grabs dictates a higher standard. I hope that clarifies the "stones" I am throwing. I go to a comp to compete and have fun not always in that order. But I expect the judges to show and judge they can drink their beer on Friday night or after the comp.

Just Pulin' Pork
05-10-2011, 12:43 AM
Bentley with all do respect, this was not there first rodeo! This judge has judges many contests and rules are rules! I am sick and tired of all the excuses that come from the people that think they are better than the rules, laws etc! KCBS needs to take the opportunity to use this as an example and suspend him!

Bentley
05-10-2011, 12:59 AM
I would agree with both of you regarding punishment. There is a rule, we know that. After 9 years of judging and 25 contest I do now too :redface:. So if we have a rule and it has been broken there should be an established punishment? I know when I was drinking and screwed the Pooch at a contest in 2004, KCBS sure had a plan of action for me!

My concern is the folks that want blood...And if these guys dont have the cojones to at least apologize in private to the person they were rude to, maybe it is deserved!

Brewer
05-10-2011, 01:15 AM
In the 3 short years I have been competing I have yet to see or hear about any of the PNWBA judges drinking prior to judging...the head judges up here run a pretty tight ship in that respect.

There have been other "issues" of late that I plan to bring up at an upcoming class to see if it is an acceptable behavior or not.

I'm gonna be at that upcoming class - can't wait to hear the dirt :heh:

Plowboy
05-10-2011, 01:53 AM
Nice job, Bull Dozer!

Everyone, let's slap some wrists and move on.

HawgNationBBQ
05-10-2011, 09:44 AM
I agree 100%.

Jeff_in_KC
05-10-2011, 10:08 AM
No one gives teams a second chance if they get caught cooking with gas or if they have a foreign object in their box or not enough pieces. Use red tipped leaf lettuce and see if you get a second chance. How are the rules for the judges any damned different? I think we can stop with the accusations of stone throwing unless anyone throwing stones has cheated themselves.

daedalus
05-10-2011, 10:45 AM
No one gives teams a second chance if they get caught cooking with gas or if they have a foreign object in their box or not enough pieces. Use red tipped leaf lettuce and see if you get a second chance. How are the rules for the judges any damned different? I think we can stop with the accusations of stone throwing unless anyone throwing stones has cheated themselves.
You draw an interesting parallel. I may be mistaken, but I was not aware that a team caught using gas or including a foreign object in their box was banned from all further contests. I thought they were only DQ'd on that day. If we go by how it works if a team is caught doing something against the rules then the judges should not be suspended at all, but merely not be allowed to judge on that day. As I understand it, that is exactly what happened.

Earlier you said:
Strip their arrogant asses of their Master CBJs.
Ban them from judging for one year.
Make them write an apology letter to all cooks and especially the 44 at St. Joseph.
Never publish another article of their's in the Bullsheet again.
So are you saying that if a team is caught doing something against the rules that they should be banned from competing for one year, make them write an apology letter to all the contest organizers, and their team name should be removed from the KCBS register?
I mean if we are being consistent...

Alexa RnQ
05-10-2011, 11:00 AM
8 hours bottle to throttle
Well there you go. If they planned on returning the same evening, no wonder they'd be adamant about getting their drunk on early.

if a team is caught doing something against the rules that they should be banned from competing for one year, make them write an apology letter to all the contest organizers, and their team name should be removed from the KCBS register?
I mean if we are being consistent...
Why not? Ethical teams don't have anything to fear.

Smokin Karen
05-10-2011, 11:28 AM
I want to say thank you to Steph! (Thank you, Steph!) We were one of the teams @St. Joe. I am disappointed that a master judge would behave in this manner, not just drinking but the way they reacted to getting caught. I do believe in second chances. However, these are judges and they should be held to a higher standard. I think they will incur punishments beyond anything that KCBS hands down. The fallout of this will be reps that won't want them and teams that will protest them.

daedalus
05-10-2011, 12:01 PM
Well there you go. If they planned on returning the same evening, no wonder they'd be adamant about getting their drunk on early.


Why not? Ethical teams don't have anything to fear.
Because it is possible to break the rules and still be ethical. I judged a comp a few weeks back where a team was DQ'd because of a tiny piece of foil stuck to one of their slices. They clearly were not trying to gain a competitive advantage...they just didn't notice it. Is that grounds for sanctions, or should it be based on intent? And if it based on intent, then who determines whether the infraction was intentional, accidental, or due to lack of knowledge of the rules? Then there is the issue of what punishments are handed down for what infractions. Before you know it we have more rules than golf, and everyone has to bring lawyers to comps. NOBODY wants that!
Okay, maybe this is an exaggeration, but my point is that while people do need to be held accountable for their actions, common sense also need to be used when determining consequences.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
05-10-2011, 12:10 PM
daedelus, (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/member.php?u=7720)
in the KCBS rules under the "causes for disqualification & eviction":
in addition(to infractions of the rules one of which being "Foul,abusive or unacceptable language or any language causing a disturbance"), any violation of the above rules shall be reported to the KCBS Board of Directors who may in addition to the above disqualification(of the contest) impose additional penalties of the team, the head cook, and it members including but not limited to disqualification from competing in KCBS events for a period of time not to exceed five years.

Look guys. Diva said herself she only saw them drink one beer. They probably weren't stupid drunk but it is clearly a violation of the rules which they swore to abide by. Then when they were caught and reported, they chose to take the low road by insulting a woman and talking about her in front of her family and a contest organizer (who should be reporting this to the BoD.) which is breaking another and in my mind more important rule which is treating everyone at a contest with respect. Should they be banned for life..i don't think so. Should the be suspended from judging for a suitable period, be required to issue a formal apology and be made to read and sign a fresh copy of the KCBS judges code of conduct (to eliminate and excuses of not knowing rules)...100% YES!

daedalus
05-10-2011, 12:14 PM
daedelus, (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/member.php?u=7720)
in the KCBS rules under the "causes for disqualification & eviction":
in addition(to infractions of the rules one of which being "Foul,abusive or unacceptable language or any language causing a disturbance"), any violation of the above rules shall be reported to the KCBS Board of Directors who may in addition to the above disqualification(of the contest) impose additional penalties of the team, the head cook, and it members including but not limited to disqualification from competing in KCBS events for a period of time not to exceed five years.

Look guys. Diva said herself she only saw them drink one beer. They probably weren't stupid drunk but it is clearly a violation of the rules which they swore to abide by. Then when they were caught and reported, they chose to take the low road by insulting a woman and talking about her in front of her family and a contest organizer (who should be reporting this to the BoD.) which is breaking another and in my mind more important rule which is treating everyone at a contest with respect. Should they be banned for life..i don't think so. Should the be suspended from judging for a suitable period, be required to issue a formal apology and be made to read and sign a fresh copy of the KCBS judges code of conduct (to eliminate and excuses of not knowing rules)...100% YES!
I agree completely

Sledneck
05-10-2011, 12:17 PM
Whats gonna happen is they are going to admit guilt in the bullsheet.And a weak apology to boot. Then they are going to go around and preach about not drinking and judging, raising awareness, they are gonna be heros. Happens all the time......

Just Pulin' Pork
05-10-2011, 12:30 PM
Whats gonna happen is they are going to admit guilt in the bullsheet.And a weak apology to boot. Then they are going to go around and preach about not drinking and judging, raising awareness, they are gonna be heros. Happens all the time......


Bingo! And the sad part is people will eat it up!

Jorge
05-10-2011, 12:36 PM
So are you saying that if a team is caught doing something against the rules that they should be banned from competing for one year, make them write an apology letter to all the contest organizers, and their team name should be removed from the KCBS register?
I mean if we are being consistent...

I THINK what Jeff is saying is that the behavior after being reported merits some additional punishment.

They got caught breaking the rules, that have existed for years and that they should have been aware of. Pitching a fit, singling out the person that caught you doing something wrong. When approached the individual in question argued that they weren't doing anything wrong, and indicated they DID NOT understand the rule. That's pretty important to me.

They were approached by the person that reported them and asked what the deal was. Had they acknowledged their mistake, I suspect the ending would have been much different. They had the opportunity to report themselves to the Rep and asking to be removed for making a mistake. The individual in question made another decision.

He chose to insinuate that there would be payback, and was intentionally an ass about the situation. Not acceptable behavior. If you make a mistake, own it. If you are embarrassed, deal with it. Don't get mad and make it worse for yourself and everyone else involved.

Yeah, I think that individual deserves a little more than not being able to judge that particular event. I'll leave that to the BoD.

This is not a judge vs. cook issue. This is a rules issue. In this particular case, at least one judge seems to have taken exception to being questioned about adhering to the rules and reacted poorly. Had he talked to my wife that way, there would have been an apology one way or another including incurring a 1 year ban myself.

Slamdunkpro
05-10-2011, 12:54 PM
Please don't kill me for this.........


I've been told by reps that the no drinking / no fraternization prohibitions only apply after the oath at the judge's meeting. Is this the case or is it an all turn in day thing?

As long as we're on the subject of palate pollution - what if any is the rule / policy on judges smoking between turn-ins - this is a fairly common practice.



just askin':boxing:

Jorge
05-10-2011, 12:59 PM
Please don't kill me for this.........


I've been told by reps that the no drinking / no fraternization prohibitions only apply after the oath at the judge's meeting. Is this the case or is it an all turn in day thing?

As long as we're on the subject of palate pollution - what if any is the rule / policy on judges smoking between turn-ins - this is a fairly common practice.



just askin':boxing:

Unless I'm mistaken, fraternization ends at midnight prior to turn-in.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
05-10-2011, 01:38 PM
In the CBJ course book, in the "instructions for judges" area it states that there is no smoking in the judging area". In the "Table Captains Guidelines" area it states that "judges should not leave the judging area". By that i would not think judges should be allowed to smoke until judging is completed. But it does call it a guideline so i guess it is up to the contest rep? Personally, I don't think it should be allowed.

Fraternization with teams is allowed on the Friday before the contest but it is suggested that it be limited for judges. After the judges orientation visiting with teams is not allowed.

JD McGee
05-10-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm gonna be at that upcoming class - can't wait to hear the dirt :heh:
Sorry man...we will not be attending the class...picked up a catering gig. As far as the "issues" are concerned we are just gonna let the sleeping dog lie for now and see if we notice it throughout the season...could be nothing worth stirring the pot over.

Rookie'48
05-10-2011, 05:37 PM
Please don't kill me for this.........
I've been told by reps that the no drinking / no fraternization prohibitions only apply after the oath at the judge's meeting. Is this the case or is it an all turn in day thing?
As long as we're on the subject of palate pollution - what if any is the rule / policy on judges smoking between turn-ins - this is a fairly common practice.
just askin':boxing:

Here's how I see it, but remember that I'm a judge, not a Rep.

Everyone that knows me knows that I like beer. You'll see me at a lot of comps on Friday evening, visiting, drinking, eating, etc. At most of the comps I'm going to know at least 25% of the teams there. These folks are friends of mine; some of them I've cooked with, most I've shared a drink or a meal with.
When I'm wandering around visiting teams on Friday I usually have my cooler with me - my cooler has Busch Light, maybe some Shiner or Templeton Rye and most likely some of my smoked cheese that I'm more than willing to share with folks.
I wander around until 11:30 pm or so & then I book on out of there to my travel trailer or motel room. A couple of times I've accidently strayed past midnight without knowing it, but not often. Sometimes I'll leave my cooler with a team when I leave for the night so I don't have to carry it back in the next day.
In the morning as I walk past the teams on my way to the Judges' Tent, I say something like "Good morning & good luck to ya!" I don't stop & talk, I don't walk up to them. The rules say "no fraternization on the day of" and I think that means on the whole day of ..... until judging is completed.
When I'm DONE judging then I head for wherever I left my cooler, have a cold brew & visit until the awards ceremony - and I'm sitting right there to cheer for my friends when they get a call.
If I can't wait until after judging for a beer then I'd better seriously think about getting some help.

End of rant.

Balls Casten
05-10-2011, 07:35 PM
I’m in the camp that this is not a monumental crime. And there is room for discussion.
But in no way shape or form should you have been disrespected. Especially if front of others when following the rules. I’m sorry you had to incur this at a contest. You have always been a great BBQ advocate.

I was the one that turned them in. They know I was the one because I told them I did it. Then they got crappy, took down my team name so they could write a story about me. One of them referred to me as "this" while pointing at me and telling the organizer that "this" didn't want him judging. He disrespected me by referring to me in a vengeful manner. To show no ill will, I will be respectful and use his given name, Mike Garrison, he's one of the Flying BBQ Judges.

Can't wait to see his story. How's he gonna call me a bitch for turning him in and not incriminate themselves for breaking the rules????

BBQ_Mayor
05-10-2011, 07:50 PM
I'm with ya Dave. It's in the rules so judges should not be drinking or taking any type of substance prior to judging. We cooks put A LOT of time and A LOT of money into this sport and we need those CBJ's to give us their best.
I'm always glad to see Dave at a contest. I know he's an outstanding judge and will judge everything fairly. Thanks for being such a great judge Dave!:clap2:

Muzzlebrake
05-10-2011, 08:21 PM
Whats gonna happen is they are going to admit guilt in the bullsheet.And a weak apology to boot. Then they are going to go around and preach about not drinking and judging, raising awareness, they are gonna be heros. Happens all the time......

Bingo! And the sad part is people will eat it up!

that was my thought, that somehow they will spin this "for the good" in their articles

no such thing as bad publicity though......at least I'll be waiting to see what they write. I haven't read anything interesting in the Bullsheet in a while.

Steph it sucks they were *******s to you, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you politely pointed out the error of their ways to them

ModelMaker
05-10-2011, 08:32 PM
David, you drink beer???
Well I'll be gotahell.
Ed

Plowboy
05-10-2011, 09:21 PM
I THINK what Jeff is saying is that the behavior after being reported merits some additional punishment.

They got caught breaking the rules, that have existed for years and that they should have been aware of. Pitching a fit, singling out the person that caught you doing something wrong. When approached the individual in question argued that they weren't doing anything wrong, and indicated they DID NOT understand the rule. That's pretty important to me.

They were approached by the person that reported them and asked what the deal was. Had they acknowledged their mistake, I suspect the ending would have been much different. They had the opportunity to report themselves to the Rep and asking to be removed for making a mistake. The individual in question made another decision.

He chose to insinuate that there would be payback, and was intentionally an ass about the situation. Not acceptable behavior. If you make a mistake, own it. If you are embarrassed, deal with it. Don't get mad and make it worse for yourself and everyone else involved.

Yeah, I think that individual deserves a little more than not being able to judge that particular event. I'll leave that to the BoD.

This is not a judge vs. cook issue. This is a rules issue. In this particular case, at least one judge seems to have taken exception to being questioned about adhering to the rules and reacted poorly. Had he talked to my wife that way, there would have been an apology one way or another including incurring a 1 year ban myself.

Oh boy, another life or death decision for the BOD to spend precious time on.

Plowboy
05-10-2011, 09:23 PM
Here's how I see it, but remember that I'm a judge, not a Rep.

Everyone that knows me knows that I like beer. You'll see me at a lot of comps on Friday evening, visiting, drinking, eating, etc. At most of the comps I'm going to know at least 25% of the teams there. These folks are friends of mine; some of them I've cooked with, most I've shared a drink or a meal with.
When I'm wandering around visiting teams on Friday I usually have my cooler with me - my cooler has Busch Light, maybe some Shiner or Templeton Rye and most likely some of my smoked cheese that I'm more than willing to share with folks.
I wander around until 11:30 pm or so & then I book on out of there to my travel trailer or motel room. A couple of times I've accidently strayed past midnight without knowing it, but not often. Sometimes I'll leave my cooler with a team when I leave for the night so I don't have to carry it back in the next day.
In the morning as I walk past the teams on my way to the Judges' Tent, I say something like "Good morning & good luck to ya!" I don't stop & talk, I don't walk up to them. The rules say "no fraternization on the day of" and I think that means on the whole day of ..... until judging is completed.
When I'm DONE judging then I head for wherever I left my cooler, have a cold brew & visit until the awards ceremony - and I'm sitting right there to cheer for my friends when they get a call.
If I can't wait until after judging for a beer then I'd better seriously think about getting some help.

End of rant.

As a judge and a person... we love you Dave!!!

HarleyEarl
05-10-2011, 11:28 PM
Sheph, you did right to report him. The Rep did right by expelling him from judging. NOW, will the BoD do the right thing? If this were a cook team rather than a judge, the repercussions for his action toward Steph, have been stated before in this thread, but how will the BoD react since this is a judge and a monthly contributor to the Bullsheet? The penalties should be the same and after this incident, the column should also be pulled for the same amount of time (other than one last article that consists of only an apology to Steph, the Slabs, and all the cook teams, judges, reps, and organizers of the contest).

I believe we will all be waiting to see how the politics play out for this.

Just my two cents for what it's worth.

Big Poppa
05-11-2011, 09:44 AM
I agree with most of you but as a guy who is in the air hundreds of hours..Pilots flying to contests and drinking? Sort of the bigger issue to me. Im sure the FAA would not just slap hands.

sizzlinbonesfan
05-11-2011, 01:06 PM
Don't be hatin' all judges!! There is always 1 in the bunch that messes up for everyone! If you break the rules you should have consequences. But I know from table captain and just hanging out and talking to other judges, MOST of them really do take the job seriously. And my favorite reps (Ralph and Karen) make you feel like you are doing a dis-service to not judge properly and accurately!
Most of us do follow the rules!!
Judging Claremore this weekend, promise not to drink til done! lol

Alissa
Okie from Muskogee

bover
05-12-2011, 11:00 AM
After hearing how Mr. Garrison treated Diva I can't say that I'd be too excited to see him in a judging tent, and I have to believe that most of my fellow judges feel the same way. I don't really give two craps about the drinking (other than it being an obvious rule violation and did indeed need to be reported), but the disrespect shown to a competitor is inexcusable. Given the high profile of these two individuals, I really hope contest reps everywhere are made aware of the situation and take whatever action they feel is appropriate.

Jeff_in_KC
05-12-2011, 05:17 PM
For the record (and I was asked a couple of pages back), YES, I think teams doing illegal things for a competitive advantage should be banned. The foil question is a little ridiculous though. Those kinds of things are accidents. You don't "accidently" drink beer at inappropriate times and you don't "accidently" disrespect a competitor. And you don't "accidently" hook gas up to your smoker with the meat on. Wasn't it Lake Quivira Smokers who were banned for five years for using gas at a comp around KC?

Bunny
05-13-2011, 11:55 AM
For the record (and I was asked a couple of pages back), YES, I think teams doing illegal things for a competitive advantage should be banned. The foil question is a little ridiculous though. Those kinds of things are accidents. You don't "accidently" drink beer at inappropriate times and you don't "accidently" disrespect a competitor. And you don't "accidently" hook gas up to your smoker with the meat on. Wasn't it Lake Quivira Smokers who were banned for five years for using gas at a comp around KC?

Yep.

QansasjayhawQ
05-13-2011, 12:03 PM
Wow. This whole thread kinda blows me away.

I am very sorry that you had to bear the brunt of that judge's abusive nature, Diva. His response is embarrassing to me and it makes me sad to hear that another judge would act that way.

Intention vs. facts. We all learn how to play this as kids. 'But mom, I didn't mean to do that!' will usually go a long way towards reducing the consequences.

To drink beer before judging when you know that you shouldn't . . . the intention argument doesn't get you very far here - and a rule is a rule.

I accidentally left a toothpick in a piece of chicken when I was first starting out. Guess what? DQ'd - made sense to me at the time.

So, if a itsy bitsy tiny piece of foil accidentally winds up in a box, guess what?

I felt really, really bad about finding that tiny piece of aluminum foil. My heart sank right to the floor because I knew what it meant for that team. I wanted to cry. I even considered ignoring it and went back and forth in my mind several times about what to do. But in the end, I had to ask myself how I would want to be treated in the same situation. I would want everyone to be treated as fairly as possible, intentions or no intentions. That's why we have 'the rules'.

As far as the beer drinking and contestant abuse, I think the rep's actions were clear and consistent with the rules.

Anything more than that will have to be determined by the BOD - that's why we have them there.

Thanks for all the excellent discussion, everyone.

mobow
05-13-2011, 12:13 PM
A little expansive of the topic but I think it fits well enough. If not sorry for the hijack. I think this is a great example of where the BOD needs to seperate or better define their role. For most companies the BoD sets policy and strategic planning and Mission and then the employees enforce them. With the reference that the BoD will need to decide what to do I would suggest that they take the next step of becoming a effeciently run bussinees and let employees set the consequence for this incident. They have already set the rules. keith

bover
05-13-2011, 03:36 PM
A little expansive of the topic but I think it fits well enough. If not sorry for the hijack. I think this is a great example of where the BOD needs to seperate or better define their role. For most companies the BoD sets policy and strategic planning and Mission and then the employees enforce them. With the reference that the BoD will need to decide what to do I would suggest that they take the next step of becoming a effeciently run bussinees and let employees set the consequence for this incident. They have already set the rules. keith

Agreed. The BoD should govern reps and reps should govern judges. If I were a rep, I'd exercise my rights to not accept a judging application from the offending individual for any of my contests for X amount of time. That decision should be up to the individual reps however and not something the BoD dictates.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
05-13-2011, 04:28 PM
I understand what ya'll are saying about the BoD not dealing with such matters but I definitely wouldn't want to see an individual rep making that kind of decision. Seems that would give them entirely to much unchecked power. Maybe a peer review committee made up of several KCBS contest reps?

QansasjayhawQ
05-13-2011, 09:00 PM
And to be gut-level honest with you - I would hate to find out that these guys were judging at a competition where I was competing. I would feel cheated.

Someone a while back said something about retraining. It's true that some of us need more of that than others - 'cept for Rookie48 of course. He should be Grand Master Judge of us all.

Dr_KY
05-14-2011, 06:58 AM
What if the leader of the event brings beer in for the judges while they are judging?
Thoughts?

Arlin_MacRae
05-14-2011, 09:41 AM
What if the leader of the event brings beer in for the judges while they are judging?
Thoughts?

Ooh, if it was a KCBS event I'd talk to the rep and remind him/her of the rules and maybe throw in my own two cents. No joy there and I'd probably shoot a BoD member a note.

Muzzlebrake
05-14-2011, 09:58 AM
What if the leader of the event brings beer in for the judges while they are judging?
Thoughts?

keep it iced until after its all over if its a KCBS event. From what I understand other sanctioning bodies have different regs, and have heard that some allow judges to drink beers and eat pretzels while judging.....

and don't listen to Arlin, he doesn't even like beer:-P

Arlin_MacRae
05-14-2011, 10:13 AM
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA??? If I wasn't in my jammies freezing my arse on the back porch right now I'd have a beer. Well, it's only 9:15 so...I'd be thinking of having one!

Oh, and I'm not judging today so it's OK by the KCBS. ;)

Dr_KY
05-14-2011, 10:52 AM
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA??? If I wasn't in my jammies freezing my arse on the back porch right now I'd have a beer. Well, it's only 9:15 so...I'd be thinking of having one!

Oh, and I'm not judging today so it's OK by the KCBS. ;)
lol It's 4PM here and I'm thinking of cracking open a cider under DRKY sanctioned event rules it's my yard and I can make it up...errr.... amend them as I go along.:becky:

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/cza1361l.jpg

Muzzlebrake
05-14-2011, 01:08 PM
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA??? If I wasn't in my jammies freezing my arse on the back porch right now I'd have a beer. Well, it's only 9:15 so...I'd be thinking of having one!

Oh, and I'm not judging today so it's OK by the KCBS. ;)

see?!? what kind of man limits his beer drinking because of his attire?:becky:

speedrcer1
05-14-2011, 08:31 PM
Just FYI,
Took my judging class today and the alcohol policy was stated simply with no discussion.

Rookie'48
05-14-2011, 10:56 PM
If I were a rep, I'd exercise my rights to not accept a judging application from the offending individual for any of my contests for X amount of time.

Josh, the problem with this is that the selection and use of judges is strictly up to the organizer - that's why we have some contests with 100% CBJs and some with mostly "celebrity" (sp?) judges. Some comps will use only CBJs, even for Table Captain and "helper" duties and other organizers will turn away CBJs so that the Mayor & the editor of the paper can get a seat.
Although I DO agree with your sentiment :thumb:.

Bunny
05-15-2011, 06:41 PM
Agreed. The BoD should govern reps and reps should govern judges. If I were a rep, I'd exercise my rights to not accept a judging application from the offending individual for any of my contests for X amount of time. That decision should be up to the individual reps however and not something the BoD dictates.

OH no way!! Reps make decisions like Mike did because of the rules, but they need BOD backup to give the offender punishment. Don't give the rep that decision.

Stoke&Smoke
06-09-2011, 03:13 PM
So it looks like the "official" response on this was just put out on the latest Bullsheet, page 12

No acknowledgement by offenders that at least 2 of the 6 rules that were listed by them were violated?!? And nothing close to a hint of an apology for thier behaviour.

What a crock!:mad2:

Did I miss where the board addressed this?

I can almost understand how someone might overlook the alcohol rule. But a rule is a rule, and if cooks must comply with the rules, then so should judges, table captains, etc.

What really frosts me is that they were insulting to the person who rightfully turned them in, and in so acting that way, violated a second rule, and apparently think they are elite enough to be allowed to get away with it

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
06-09-2011, 04:33 PM
.....Wow.....Way to go BoD!! The article should have had a picture of him, smiling drinking a beer, burning a copy of the rules while sitting at a judging table.

riblette
06-09-2011, 06:19 PM
I listened to the KCBS BOD replay. They mentioned two of the 3 judges have had a "history" of misconduct. There was a brief discussion concerning prohibiting the cooks from drinking, but that did not last long, however they did spend more time discussing that than they did discussing the verbal abuse, which to me seems much more severe than the drinking. Although the verbal abuse was acknowledged and not disputed it was not condemned and did not seem to enter into the assessment of what to do with the judges in question.

The "probation" is not really a probation, it is a free pass/warning, as it comes with no restrictions, no additional monitoring of the judges, and no requirements other than to not do it again. My take away was that the BOD seemed more annoyed with the fact someone raised a stink about the drinking than they did about two of their highest profile judges violating rules and verbally abusing the cook...something to the effect that people complaining are taking “the fun out of the sport"....but if you're interested I recommend you listen for yourselves and come to your own conclusion.

Bentley
06-09-2011, 11:48 PM
What disturbed me about the discussion was pertaining to Celebratie or VIP judges, some of the BOD was more concerned that you might ruffle promoters and sponsers feathers and that these rules wont apply to them, to Paraphrase one BOD, if the Governor of TN is judging and he has a drink before the contest, good luck making the rule apply...

Time to advise promotes that if you want a KCBS event, you take all CBJ before you get to put VIP's in, insted of trying to skirt the issue...so just dont be a CBJ and you can get as tore down as you want before you judge...

Stoke&Smoke
06-10-2011, 10:48 AM
I had forgotten that the podcasts were available....I think I'll be listening to those a lot more closely in the future. Just sent this email to KCBS for what it's worth...

To the BOD

I just wanted to write to express disappointment over an article in the latest Bullsheet, which I just received today.

On page 12, there is an article about the judges code of conduct. What isn’t mentioned, is that at least one of the authors of the article, who have what amounts to a monthly column in the Bullsheet, was recently DQ’d as a judge at an event in St. Joseph, for breaking rule 2 of the code of conduct, consuming alcohol before judging.

He then further proceeded to break rule 6, by acting in a disparaging manner toward the woman who reported him for drinking. This second infraction got almost no mention in the board meeting!

It seems that at least one of the authors should have admitted his misconduct, instead of just re-posting the rules and hiding by the excuse that “he has been judging for 28 years and his experience actually goes back before the formation of KCBS”, and not even acknowledging that it happened.

So what!? Does that mean he is exempt from the rules because of some perceived grandfather clause? Did he forget that disparaging remarks were not only crass and rude, but also against the rules? Having now listened to the BOD discuss the issue, it’s clear that the judges involved could have chosen to explain to the contest organizer that they were not allowed to imbibe the morning of an event. Instead, they made a conscious decision to go ahead and violate rule #2. And the violation of rule 6 is almost completely ignored in the meeting!

I listened to the podcast of the 5/25 BOD meeting with great interest. I heard some actually trying to excuse it by saying it isn’t a well known rule? Bull! “It’s the first time I heard of this” Really?

Then someone says “why do we allow cooks to drink?” Because, the rules say that cooks can, as long as they don’t get out of hand. And secondly, because the cooks have paid an average of probably 500.00 to compete in that event. It is their responsibility to keep their palates in good enough shape to ensure the food they present tastes the way they want it to. And if you try to tell them they can’t drink, you’ll lose a whole bunch of cooks! Another member of the BOD who won’t be getting my vote next time.

The reps and judges however, are a different story. Reps, I believe, are paid a stipend for their time and effort. And judges owe it to the cooks to keep their palates sharp. In my opinion, smoking should also not be allowed between tasting, but that’s another story altogether!

There isn’t a rule that says cooks can’t drink. There IS a rule in the judges code of conduct, and it’s been there at least as long as I’ve been a KCBS member. Good for the BOD member that pointed that out, and for understanding the difference. Good also, for the person (whose name I didn’t catch) for pointing out that a suspension was in order. Rules are rules people! It is your DUTY as members of the BOD to enforce the rules! And anyone who argued against that will not be getting my vote next time. Later in the conversation, it’s said, “we’re on shaky ground here” What’s shaky? Rules are rules are rules! And …”we don’t have a rule in place”… WTF? There IS a rule in place. Rule 2 of the judges code of conduct! Stop dancing around the matter and issue a suspension! Some kind of probation? What a crock! The rule isn’t “buried pretty deep. It’s at the bottom of the downloads page. And the judges code of conduct is also in the judges certification booklet, So if there was any judge there looking to get their master judge sheet signed, I’d venture a guess that there were multiple copies of that booklet in the judges tent.

I have been a certified judge for over 5 years, a certified table captain for over 4, and a competitor for 4. As such, I’m a relative rookie I suppose. Nonetheless, one of the reasons I became involved, was because of the high standards held by KCBS, and while I may not agree all the time, I follow the rules, because they are just that, rules. Not suggestions that someone can overlook using an excuse of “I didn’t know”

If a team gets caught deliberately breaking a rule, there is often a suspension invoked. Shouldn’t the same rule apply to a judge or table captain?

It is my belief that the right thing to do would have been to acknowledge the infraction, perhaps tell his side of the story, and at the very least, issue a public apology to the person who rightfully reported the infraction. Instead, by not addressing it, he expresses no regret, shows no remorse, and completely sidesteps the issue

To anyone aware of the story, the “article” on page 12 is little more than a whitewash, and probably would have been put to better use as ad space. As a dues paying member, I feel it’s not only my right, but my responsibility to register my disappointment with this situation and the way it was (or wasn’t) reported to the membership. There seems to be no problem enforcing rules pertaining to cooks, who pay large sums of money to compete. How can there be so much disagreement over a written rule?

I can guarantee there will be many members who will not get my vote after the pathetic way this was handled. I can almost see the smug smile on the face of the “flying Barbecue judge” while reading his posting of the very rules he violated. Way to put teeth in the rules guys and gals!:tsk:

Regards,
Dann Boland
#17139
Team 2 Skinny Cooks

bover
06-10-2011, 01:18 PM
Well said Dann

Stoke&Smoke
06-10-2011, 03:06 PM
Thanks Bover. I got an email a short while after sending mine to KCBS from a Kelly Cain. It read...

Thank you for your e-mail. I have forwarded it to a member of the board for their review

I'm fairly sure nothing will come of it....

Lake Dogs
06-10-2011, 03:21 PM
<self mod'd>

The voting system for the KCBS BOD is set up such that familiar names win because everyone votes for multiple people. Only when allowed to vote for one person and the top vote recipients get positions will this be anything different.

In the mean time dont expect anything substantial to happen.

Just Pulin' Pork
06-10-2011, 03:26 PM
I had forgotten that the podcasts were available....I think I'll be listening to those a lot more closely in the future. Just sent this email to KCBS for what it's worth...

To the BOD

I just wanted to write to express disappointment over an article in the latest Bullsheet, which I just received today.

On page 12, there is an article about the judges code of conduct. What isn’t mentioned, is that at least one of the authors of the article, who have what amounts to a monthly column in the Bullsheet, was recently DQ’d as a judge at an event in St. Joseph, for breaking rule 2 of the code of conduct, consuming alcohol before judging.

He then further proceeded to break rule 6, by acting in a disparaging manner toward the woman who reported him for drinking. This second infraction got almost no mention in the board meeting!

It seems that at least one of the authors should have admitted his misconduct, instead of just re-posting the rules and hiding by the excuse that “he has been judging for 28 years and his experience actually goes back before the formation of KCBS”, and not even acknowledging that it happened.

So what!? Does that mean he is exempt from the rules because of some perceived grandfather clause? Did he forget that disparaging remarks were not only crass and rude, but also against the rules? Having now listened to the BOD discuss the issue, it’s clear that the judges involved could have chosen to explain to the contest organizer that they were not allowed to imbibe the morning of an event. Instead, they made a conscious decision to go ahead and violate rule #2. And the violation of rule 6 is almost completely ignored in the meeting!

I listened to the podcast of the 5/25 BOD meeting with great interest. I heard some actually trying to excuse it by saying it isn’t a well known rule? Bull! “It’s the first time I heard of this” Really?

Then someone says “why do we allow cooks to drink?” Because, the rules say that cooks can, as long as they don’t get out of hand. And secondly, because the cooks have paid an average of probably 500.00 to compete in that event. It is their responsibility to keep their palates in good enough shape to ensure the food they present tastes the way they want it to. And if you try to tell them they can’t drink, you’ll lose a whole bunch of cooks! Another member of the BOD who won’t be getting my vote next time.

The reps and judges however, are a different story. Reps, I believe, are paid a stipend for their time and effort. And judges owe it to the cooks to keep their palates sharp. In my opinion, smoking should also not be allowed between tasting, but that’s another story altogether!

There isn’t a rule that says cooks can’t drink. There IS a rule in the judges code of conduct, and it’s been there at least as long as I’ve been a KCBS member. Good for the BOD member that pointed that out, and for understanding the difference. Good also, for the person (whose name I didn’t catch) for pointing out that a suspension was in order. Rules are rules people! It is your DUTY as members of the BOD to enforce the rules! And anyone who argued against that will not be getting my vote next time. Later in the conversation, it’s said, “we’re on shaky ground here” What’s shaky? Rules are rules are rules! And …”we don’t have a rule in place”… WTF? There IS a rule in place. Rule 2 of the judges code of conduct! Stop dancing around the matter and issue a suspension! Some kind of probation? What a crock! The rule isn’t “buried pretty deep. It’s at the bottom of the downloads page. And the judges code of conduct is also in the judges certification booklet, So if there was any judge there looking to get their master judge sheet signed, I’d venture a guess that there were multiple copies of that booklet in the judges tent.

I have been a certified judge for over 5 years, a certified table captain for over 4, and a competitor for 4. As such, I’m a relative rookie I suppose. Nonetheless, one of the reasons I became involved, was because of the high standards held by KCBS, and while I may not agree all the time, I follow the rules, because they are just that, rules. Not suggestions that someone can overlook using an excuse of “I didn’t know”

If a team gets caught deliberately breaking a rule, there is often a suspension invoked. Shouldn’t the same rule apply to a judge or table captain?

It is my belief that the right thing to do would have been to acknowledge the infraction, perhaps tell his side of the story, and at the very least, issue a public apology to the person who rightfully reported the infraction. Instead, by not addressing it, he expresses no regret, shows no remorse, and completely sidesteps the issue

To anyone aware of the story, the “article” on page 12 is little more than a whitewash, and probably would have been put to better use as ad space. As a dues paying member, I feel it’s not only my right, but my responsibility to register my disappointment with this situation and the way it was (or wasn’t) reported to the membership. There seems to be no problem enforcing rules pertaining to cooks, who pay large sums of money to compete. How can there be so much disagreement over a written rule?

I can guarantee there will be many members who will not get my vote after the pathetic way this was handled. I can almost see the smug smile on the face of the “flying Barbecue judge” while reading his posting of the very rules he violated. Way to put teeth in the rules guys and gals!:tsk:

Regards,
Dann Boland
#17139
Team 2 Skinny Cooks


Dann: I like what you have to say but too bad it will fall on deaf hears! The BOD has proven time and time again that they can not find there way out of a wet paper bag. Thanks for your efforts though.

Jon

The_Kapn
06-10-2011, 03:53 PM
In the past I have seen many "pile on's" about the KCBS BOD.
I always took them with a grain of salt and stayed out of it.

But, in this case, the BOD is clearly totally out of touch with the rules, common decency, common sense, and maturity.

Their decision, as I understand it, is clearly an amateur "Peice of Chit".

I now understand why a couple of men I know and respect have resigned from that BOD in the past!

What a shame.

TIM

Lake Dogs
06-10-2011, 03:59 PM
In the past I have seen many "pile on's" about the KCBS BOD.
I always took them with a grain of salt and stayed out of it.

But, in this case, the BOD is clearly totally out of touch with the rules, common decency, common sense, and maturity.

Their decision, as I understand it, is clearly an amateur "Peice of Chit".

I now understand why a couple of men I know and respect have resigned from that BOD in the past!

What a shame.

TIM

Humbly, as evidenced in this decision (or lack of) and many others, I think they've lost complete touch with the whole system, from the roots of competitors and judges, on up. Without competitors the whole thing is moot.

Stoke&Smoke
06-10-2011, 04:19 PM
It might fall on deaf ears, but then again, if enough people contact the BOD and voice thier disgust with the way this was handled, and also keep records of who voted which way, maybe things could change. One thing is for sure, just complaining without donig anything or even trying to, will not result in any improvement.

Personally, I think at the very least, the judge who dissed Diva should have revieved at least a month suspension for the drinking violation, and at least another month for the way he treated her, which, in the recoding, was hardly even acknowledged. That was unacceptable behaviour in any situation, and should have warrented a lot more than a light slap on the wrist.

The expression "this is all supposed to be fun" was bandied about quite a bit during that special meeting. If blatent disregard for both the judges code of conduct, as well as plain old common courtesy are "fun" to the BOD, I think the ones that feel that way should be replaced. It's only truly fun if everyone plays be the same rules

daedalus
06-11-2011, 09:02 AM
I listened to the KCBS BOD replay.
Please forgive my ignorance, but I cannot seem to find the replay anywhere on the KCBS site...can you give me a link or tell me where it is located? I would very much like to hear it.
Thanks

Bentley
06-11-2011, 10:56 AM
Please forgive my ignorance, but I cannot seem to find the replay anywhere on the KCBS site...can you give me a link or tell me where it is located? I would very much like to hear it.
Thanks


KCBS.us under downloads.

Stoke&Smoke
06-11-2011, 10:59 AM
Please forgive my ignorance, but I cannot seem to find the replay anywhere on the KCBS site...can you give me a link or tell me where it is located? I would very much like to hear it.
Thanks

Go to KCBS.us. On the main page, click resources, then downloads. The particular meeting I referred to was titled KCBS Board of Directors meeting and dated 5/25. I believe you need to be a member to access it

bbqbrad
07-01-2011, 12:16 PM
What I may be asking the reps in the future is "Are the flying BBQ judges going to be judging here? If so, I don't want to come". If the BoD keeps hearing it from the reps, they may understand that some of us are not happy with the way these KCBS Judges are representing the organization. Sorry, but insulting and bullying a cook isn't a part of an organization that I want to support. And that's the way it looks to me.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
07-01-2011, 02:47 PM
Someone with the skill to do so should start a petition of sorts lobbying the KCBS BoD to do the right thing and enforce the rules. If enough members sign it maybe they'll get the picture that preferential treatment shouldn't be tolerated. If it is a rule for one person it should be a rule for all.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
08-04-2011, 01:44 PM
I don't want to stir up this original intent of this thread as the actions were truly distasteful. My intent of this post is to thank the BoD of KCBS for not only hearing its constituents but listening and taking action. It written in the latest Bullsheet that there will be an addendum to the KCBS CBJ rules addressing the issue of consuming alcohol prior to judging.
On the first infraction the judge will be replaced that day and will receive a letter from KCBS.
On a subsequent infraction, the judge will not be able to judge for a period of up to 1 year, will have to retake the CBJ course and will then have to write a letter to KCBS asking to be reinstated as a CBJ.
This course of action is quite fair in my opinion being that cooks face similar penalties and it is nice to see that judges will be held to the same standards.
Thanks to Randy Bigler for submitting this rule change, to Tana Shupe for seconding the motion, and the rest of the BoD for a unanimous vote of approval.

The Cosmic Pig
08-04-2011, 10:07 PM
Some days i am hoping for a loaded judge to get my food.......


:thumb:

M@
08-05-2011, 01:53 PM
As a new judge - I take the "No Drinking" rule very seriously. There is also advice to avoid soda before judging, and I take that to heart. I usually only have a cup of coffee the morning of a competition I am judging... and the first time I was worried about even that.

I was a table captain for the first time at the Harpoon competition a few weeks ago - and asked (1/2 joking) if the table captains could have a beer during the judging process. I (still joking) argued that my palette wasn't being utilized, but afterwards when I realized how much food I was carrying around and how bad it would be if I dropped something, or messed up the numbering etc... - I concluded the "no drinking for anyone in the judging tent" is the correct rule. The double blind system is as simple as possible - but even then there are a number of places where a clear mind will prevent easy mistakes.

BBQ goes really well with beer. Good BBQ is quite probably the perfect food to have with good Beers, but drinking by a judge is wrong on a ton of levels.

That being said: I think judges should get a TON of beer tickets at these brewery hosted events!

M@

daedalus
08-06-2011, 07:43 AM
I don't want to stir up this original intent of this thread as the actions were truly distasteful. My intent of this post is to thank the BoD of KCBS for not only hearing its constituents but listening and taking action. It written in the latest Bullsheet that there will be an addendum to the KCBS CBJ rules addressing the issue of consuming alcohol prior to judging.
On the first infraction the judge will be replaced that day and will receive a letter from KCBS.
On a subsequent infraction, the judge will not be able to judge for a period of up to 1 year, will have to retake the CBJ course and will then have to write a letter to KCBS asking to be reinstated as a CBJ.
This course of action is quite fair in my opinion being that cooks face similar penalties and it is nice to see that judges will be held to the same standards.
Thanks to Randy Bigler for submitting this rule change, to Tana Shupe for seconding the motion, and the rest of the BoD for a unanimous vote of approval.
I agree with you 100% and I too commend the BOD for creating specific consequences for this particular infraction. I also think that the escalating sanctions are very fair and appropriate.
Having said that, I still think they are missing the main point. The real issue here, IMHO, is not so much about the drinking. The really unfortunate part about this situation is the lack of respect shown by some of the judges after they were caught. As mentioned before, the BOD completely glossed over this entire aspect of the issue when they were deliberating it. The issue of respecting other cooks, judges, reps, etc., is supposed to be one of the core philosophies in the KCBS, and they have even written it into their rules. I understand that there is some grey area as to what is and is not "disrespectful", but If they are not willing to at least discuss these issues when they arise, then why do they bother espousing those principles in the first place?

Boshizzle
08-06-2011, 08:35 AM
Way to go, Diva! I'm a CBJ and if I witnessed judges drinking before a comp I'd turn them in too. There is no excuse for it. Judging is over by 2:30PM at the latest around here and the idea that someone can't wait until at least the afternoon to start drinking is probably an indication that they may have bigger issues in their life to deal with than participating in a KCBS event.

I think the BoD made the right move with the addendum to the rules.

Now, if we could do something about drinking cooks who drop their BBQ on the ground and still turn it in for judges to eat (as happened to a rib I was asked to judge recently) I think some more progress could be made. Does anyone really like the idea of eating food cooked by someone who is drunk?

Stoke&Smoke
08-06-2011, 11:09 AM
I think it's sad they had to make an addendum. The rule was already in place.
But at least now nobody can claim they "didn't know about it"

Disconnect
08-06-2011, 01:19 PM
Now, if we could do something about drinking cooks who drop their BBQ on the ground and still turn it in for judges to eat (as happened to a rib I was asked to judge recently) I think some more progress could be made. Does anyone really like the idea of eating food cooked by someone who is drunk?

Weren't you able to DQ it on foreign-material and not eat it?

:yuck:

Boshizzle
08-06-2011, 04:06 PM
Weren't you able to DQ it on foreign-material and not eat it?

:yuck:

Without going into a lot of the details, after a discussion among the KCBS reps they eventually left it up to me to judge it or not. They felt that the dried grass and other plant matter could have fell in the box while it was open. But, that was a bit of a stretch, IMO.

I thought it over and decided that if I could find a spot on it that I could take a bite from I'd judge it. However, I doubt that a lot of other judges would have been so forgiving.

butt head
08-06-2011, 04:25 PM
Way to go, Diva! I'm a CBJ and if I witnessed judges drinking before a comp I'd turn them in too. There is no excuse for it. Judging is over by 2:30PM at the latest around here and the idea that someone can't wait until at least the afternoon to start drinking is probably an indication that they may have bigger issues in their life to deal with than participating in a KCBS event.

I think the BoD made the right move with the addendum to the rules.

Now, if we could do something about drinking cooks who drop their BBQ on the ground and still turn it in for judges to eat (as happened to a rib I was asked to judge recently) I think some more progress could be made. Does anyone really like the idea of eating food cooked by someone who is drunk?
are you sure they were drunk. i,ve seen people drop things sober

Boshizzle
08-06-2011, 08:14 PM
are you sure they were drunk. i,ve seen people drop things sober

I don't want to get into the details of when, where, who, etc., but I'm sure that sober cooks have dropped things and then served them. But, to me, that's just as bad as judging a comp when drinking and maybe someone should have mentioned it to a comp rep if they witnessed it.

Disconnect
08-07-2011, 03:23 AM
I would expect a sober competitor to at least clean off the grass and dirt if they were gonna try to turn it in anyway..