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Southern Home Boy
05-05-2011, 10:37 AM
I have a question: I was at a KCBS comp. last weekend and when we packed up our meat for the trip, I failed to leave enough room in the coolers for the two butts that were being provided by the organizer for the People's Choice category.

When the organizers brought the butts around, I realized I didn't have any space for them. In a slight panic, I asked a neighbor if he had any space in his coolers and could he help me out?

The neighbor, being a Brother himself, didn't hesitate to help me out and the PC butts were safely cooled until I needed to prep them.

After the comp, I thanked said neighbor on the board here.

The organizer (yet another Brother) very kindly and discretely PM'd me to warn me that I should be careful about mentioning using someone else's cooler as that would be a violation of the rules if it was comp meat.

Now, since it was People's Choice, the point is kinda moot, as it doesn't really fall under the KCBS umbrella. However, it brings up the question in my newbie mind: Had this been the competition butts I cooked, would this indeed have been a violation?

The rules state:
"Teams shall not share an assigned cooking space or cooking device."
and
"Once the competition meat has been inspected, it shall not leave the contest site."

The way I read those rules, I did not share a cooking device and the meat did not leave the contest site - unless the meaning of "contest site" means specifically the site designated only for a particular team.

The only thing I could see from those rules I mentioned would be the possible interpretation that because my neighbor allowed me to put my PC butts in his cooler, we "shared" a cooking space.

I'm not trying to pick nits and I certainly am not trying to argue with the organizer who very generously gave me a private and friendly warning/heads up, but I also do not want to cheat or do anything that would be unethical.

Is there a rule I am not seeing or am I misinterpreting either of the two rules I metioned?

Full Draw BBQ
05-05-2011, 10:44 AM
It is my understanding of that rule that it would be a violation.

Southern Home Boy
05-05-2011, 11:05 AM
It is my understanding of that rule that it would be a violation.

Help me out. In what way?

Jorge
05-05-2011, 11:16 AM
Maybe? It seems like I can remember that being addressed by the BoD several years ago, but I'm not certain.

Ford
05-05-2011, 11:18 AM
Contest site is your designated spot only.

The rules apply to the 4 competition meats only. Peoples Choice is an ancillary category. Now if it's stated that the Peoples Choice follows KCBS rules then you did cheat in peoples choice and should have been disqualified for people choice only.

Had I been in your position I would have either borrowed a cooler or I would have declined to participate in peoples choice. Preception not the letter of the law is usually what's discussed and causes problems.

QansasjayhawQ
05-05-2011, 11:23 AM
^ ^ ^
I agree with what Ford says.

YankeeBBQ
05-05-2011, 11:26 AM
I would say it depends on the Reps interpretation which is a dangerous game to play.

Not the same situation but I know two teams that joined forces at a contest and ended up qualifying for the Royal Invitational. They were cooking the Royal open separately so they both had their own site. For the Invite one team decided to cook the brisket on their site while the other 3 meats were cooked on the other teams site(doesn't seem like a big deal to me). Well someone brought this to the reps attention and in the morning the rep said if they turned in that brisket it would be DQ'd (huh ?). Well the team started a new brisket and tried to get it done in the time allotted so there was no DQ.

Anyway the morel of the story is the Rep has final say so if I were you I wouldn't leave it in their hands. Next time borrow a cooler or buy one of those disposable ones at a gas station and you won't have to worry.

rweller
05-05-2011, 11:41 AM
It is my understanding of that rule that it would be a violation.
Why??? the meat did not leave the contest site and he did not share a cooking device and did not share cooking space. I guess like you said it is how you interpret the rules.

Alexa RnQ
05-05-2011, 12:09 PM
Reading through the rules, it's easy to see that they were designed to keep teams' processes separate. Regardless of the culture of sharing and helping out that the good people of BBQ have cultivated, the intent with regards to the competition itself is clear.

It's just not the Board's job to think of every possible way that teams might share, and make microrules thereto. The onus is on the cook to read the rules, understand their intent (asking reps for clarification if necessary), and then abide by the rules whether they were stated in microdetail or not.

While "cheating" is intended to gain unfair advantage, I can't see that coolering did anything more than you would have done in your own space. But even for PC, that's wandering in to a gray area, and that's where things get twisted. For a competition meat, you know you would have never considered it.

Funtimebbq
05-05-2011, 12:13 PM
Was the PC meat inspected by the contest rep or designee as if it was KCBS product? Was the PC meat cooked in the same smoker as your contest meat and did the possibility exist for you switch which product you turned in to the judges? That might make a difference to a rep.

Benny

Smoke'n Ice
05-05-2011, 12:24 PM
I would think the requirement for food safety would far outweigh the other rules and could be successfully argued and defended. I would have consulted with the rep and stated in order to maintain food safe conditions as required by rule and, more important, the safety of the judges, I would be using a shared cooler space with Joe Blow. At some point common sense is better than micro managed rules. The rules allow for some leeway and are not meant to be all things to all people. They are meant as a guideline and to "Keep Honest People Honest!" imho

Full Draw BBQ
05-05-2011, 12:44 PM
My understanding is that the meat, cookers, everything must stay within your designated cooking space. Like Ford and others said, it's a dangerous game to play when you leave it to a rep to decide what they "think" the rules say. With that being said, you are WAY ahead of the game if you are even aware of such an instance. As a contest newbie I screwed up much more glaring rules than this!!!!!

Jacked UP BBQ
05-05-2011, 03:49 PM
If helping someone out to keep meat below safe temp is cheating, they can call me a cheater anyday if I run out of room or they get food poisoning. Their choice!

Big Ugly's BBQ
05-05-2011, 04:02 PM
If helping someone out to keep meat below safe temp is cheating, they can call me a cheater anyday if I run out of room or they get food poisoning. Their choice!

As long as you put $1 bills in the turn in container.............:whoo::whoo::whoo:

That reminds me, Roc City is coming up!

Honestly, if helping out a Brother/Friend/Competitor is cheating, then almost all of us are cheaters.

Jacked UP BBQ
05-05-2011, 04:03 PM
As long as you put $1 bills in the turn in container.............:whoo::whoo::whoo:

That reminds me, Roc City is coming up!

Honestly, if helping out a Brother/Friend/Competitor is cheating, then almost all of us are cheaters.

HMMMMMMMMMMM Depending on the reps I might do it again.

Ford
05-05-2011, 06:52 PM
I would think the requirement for food safety would far outweigh the other rules and could be successfully argued and defended. I would have consulted with the rep and stated in order to maintain food safe conditions as required by rule and, more important, the safety of the judges, I would be using a shared cooler space with Joe Blow. At some point common sense is better than micro managed rules. The rules allow for some leeway and are not meant to be all things to all people. They are meant as a guideline and to "Keep Honest People Honest!" imho
Food safety trumps rules? How about go down the road to walmart and buy a $5 cooler and a bag of ice to keep them safe. That's assuming you were not prepared to keep the meat cold. People make mistakes in prep for a contest but there are lots of alternatives that let them live within the rules. And as I said earlier it would have been easy to say I forgot and I don't have any way to keep the meat cold for peoples choice so I can't participate.

Rules are rules and the Rep advisories tell Reps how to handle rule questions. There are a lot of them available to read on the KCBS website.

watertowerbbq
05-05-2011, 09:39 PM
I am going to have to disagree here and say no violation occurred. I agree that the BOD can't conceive every possible situation, but as I read the rules, I believe the intention was to prevent a "team" from breaking up into "multiple teams", cook all the meat on one cooker, prep all the boxes together and turning in multiple entries into the same contest, which would give the team an advantage or from taking the meat back home or to their restaurant to enhance it at home or to do the old switch-er-roo.

I see no advantage gained by storing your meat in another cooler. Teams loan equipment and other essentials when something is forgotten at home or breaks at the contest all the time. Are they breaking the rules?

Have you ever seen multiple teams hooked up to the same generator and not where the contest provided power? I've seen plenty of teams hook into another teams generator. Are they cheating?

Here is an example which most of us probably watched and I never saw a post about it being cheating. In the first season of BBQ Pitmasters, one of the later episodes was the Dover, DE contest I believe. Gary Notley was cooking on his own and during the contest, he ran over and borrowed an electric spice or coffee grinder from Harry Soo. It was caught on TV, viewed by thousands of people and I never heard anything about it being cheating. Now I ask you, if borrowing and using equipment from another site, during a contest, to enhance your turn-in product is not cheating, how on earth can storing your meat in another cooler be cheating. For the record, I didn't see anyting wrong with what Gary or Harry did in the situation.

Unless the act itself gains an advantage or it is explicity listed in the rules, it isn't cheating in my book.

boogiesnap
05-05-2011, 09:57 PM
in this instance cheating? no.
breaking the rules? maybe.

but, let's say the competitor selected, purchased, and brought a pork butt to the comp. that's HIS comp butt.

let's then say, the organizer gave the teams pork butts for PC.

now, the competitor was given a pork butt to hold in his cooler, and it looked better than the one he selected and purchased. he then uses that one as his COMP butt and gives the one he selected to the person he was holding it for.

and the lender may have no idea this happened.

this would be cheating.

i'm in NO WAY saying this happened, but it could, and therefor the rules.

selecting good meat is part and parcel to competing.

borrowing equipment is all good, but very different than mixing meat:roll:for lack of a better word.

Smoke'n Ice
05-05-2011, 10:31 PM
At a recent contest, a cook had a problem with his cooker. Several of use assisted him by loaning him parts, tools and high level supervision. I later used the same tool to do something on my cooker. I guess based on some interpertations, I and several nationally recognized teams cheated and should have been DQ'ed because the team requiring assistance did not bring the tools, nor choose to go buy them, needed to be sucessful and or safe.

I don't believe in this interpetation and will continue to cheat in this manner and, if I am DQ'ed, the defecation and the rotating oscillator will meet and we'll all be the poorer for it.

This is still a gentlemans sport and I prefer to beat your best and will assist you to turn out your best product. I do believe that that is what mentoring is all about and that is encourged at each and every contest by the reps.
Off soap box and thank you.

boogiesnap
05-05-2011, 10:47 PM
absolutely! it is why we are brethren and love competing.

but some are not.

pssst. SRF pork collar.:behindsofa:..


At a recent contest, a cook had a problem with his cooker. Several of use assisted him by loaning him parts, tools and high level supervision. I later used the same tool to do something on my cooker. I guess based on some interpertations, I and several nationally recognized teams cheated and should have been DQ'ed because the team requiring assistance did not bring the tools, nor choose to go buy them, needed to be sucessful and or safe.

I don't believe in this interpetation and will continue to cheat in this manner and, if I am DQ'ed, the defecation and the rotating oscillator will meet and we'll all be the poorer for it.

This is still a gentlemans sport and I prefer to beat your best and will assist you to turn out your best product. I do believe that that is what mentoring is all about and that is encourged at each and every contest by the reps.
Off soap box and thank you.

watertowerbbq
05-05-2011, 10:53 PM
unless the meaning of "contest site" means specifically the site designated only for a particular team

if it does, we should all be DQ'd when we take the meat to the turn-in table............it would be outside our site.:boxing:

dallecue
05-06-2011, 01:44 AM
The very first thing is you already beat the rules but Jacked UP BBQ (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/member.php?u=6930) is right, turning everything spoiled?



__________
Best BBQ Recipes (http://www.barbecuedirectoryguide.com/bbqsaucerecipes.html)

Southern Home Boy
05-06-2011, 10:29 AM
Well... I certainly seem to have stirred up a little debate. I'm glad actually, that there are differing opinions on this only because now I don't feel like such a dunce.

It was never my intention to break the rules or pull one over on anyone, and I certainly never swapped meat or took any other advantage of the Brother who was kind enough to lend me cooler space.

In hind sight, I agree that the best thing for me to have done would have been to walk the 100 yards or so to the sporting goods store whose parking lot we were in and buy a cheap, stryofoam cooler and a bag of ice. It just didn't occur to me that it would be a problem based on my understanding of the rules. :redface:

Thanks to everyone for chiming in though.