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View Full Version : Judging "left-overs" - take home or NOT?


bbq.tom
05-02-2011, 11:09 AM
I just judged a KCBS contest on Saturday and all the judges were instructed to throw away ALL of the entries on their plate after judging. It was explained by the contest organizer that the cooks didn’t want the judges to take anything home that they judged. That they (the cooks) only turned in entries for judging and NOT for anyone to take home.

I am not only a judge, but also a competitor, and I have NO problem with judges taking home ANYTHING after judging. It just seemed a total waste to throw away all that “left-over” meat! At other contests the left-overs are taken home and I share with my wife and/or enjoy them for lunch later that week.

I would love to hear opinions from other judges and competitors on this issue. The contest organizer DID provide some “non-judged” (already bagged) pulled pork for the judges to take home.

What is your opinion (and why)???

JayAre
05-02-2011, 11:12 AM
I dont have a problem with Judges taking leftovers home, I do however have a huge problem with judges who only show up to get free bbq and dont take the judging serious.

Fatback Joe
05-02-2011, 11:14 AM
I dont have a problem with Judges taking leftovers home, I do however have a huge problem with judges who only show up to get free bbq and dont take the judging serious.

Same here.

Lake Dogs
05-02-2011, 11:21 AM
Problem with judges taking home meat? What? Hell, in MBN judges are invited to come back to teams areas and take bags of pulled pork or ribs home... When judging I've always come home with a box of either doggie scraps or food for us. New organizer, perhaps?

EatonHoggBBQ
05-02-2011, 11:27 AM
Toss leftovers.
Just saw the classic case of one bite then load up the zip loc bag this weekend in Liberty, IN. As a judge I am truly embarrassed that this type of judge exists and is deciding the fate of hard working cooks that are putting their all into their turn in boxes.

I also want to add that this judge was a new judge with less than five contests judged, and for each category was the first one done filling out the scorecard.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-02-2011, 11:30 AM
my fear is that some judges rush to fill up there coolers and dont take an ample sample to fufill their judging obligations.. judge first ...cooler second..

huminie
05-02-2011, 11:33 AM
The judges should be there to judge, not to receive free food.

ique
05-02-2011, 11:35 AM
I'm always surprised that someone would want to save a piece of barbecue with a bite taken out of it for later.

bover
05-02-2011, 11:36 AM
my fear is that some judges rush to fill up there coolers and dont take an ample sample to fufill their judging obligations.. judge first ...cooler second..

Exactly! As a judge when I see others taking a single bite then transferring the rest to the cooler I really have to wonder if they are getting enough to give an accurate score. This is why I don't like the idea of allowing leftovers from the judging table at all. Taking some from the grazing table after judging is done however...sure, as long as the non-judging volunteers have already had their fill.

PorkQPine
05-02-2011, 11:40 AM
Two problems with taking turn-in's home. 1. Judges can take your product and show it to other teams. 2. Judges, if they are a team member, can show their team what you do and your flavor profile. 3. Judges can take small bites so they have more to eat when they get home. As a CBJ for many years and having judged many contests I have seen all of the above.

bbq.tom
05-02-2011, 11:52 AM
Two problems with taking turn-in's home. 1. Judges can take your product and show it to other teams. 2. Judges, if they are a team member, can show their team what you do and your flavor profile. 3. Judges can take small bites so they have more to eat when they get home. As a CBJ for many years and having judged many contests I have seen all of the above.

Just curious - how can a judge take "your" product and show it to other teams when they have NO IDEA who's product they are judging? Also, how can a judge show "their" team what "you do and your flavor profile" if they have NO IDEA who's product they are judging? Having judged KCBS, MBN, and North Carolina Pork Council, I can honestly state that I have absolutely NO IDEA who's product I am tasting/judging when judging "blind".

Tarheel
05-02-2011, 11:52 AM
The contest is Hog Fest in Edenton. Yes, the judges were not allowed to take any of the items that they recieved to judge. My instructions were that the meat was sent in for one reason only and that was to be judged. I also explained that the cooks would be providing goodie bags of there meat for the judges who wanted them. It was not just pulled pork, it was all four meats and was provided by the cook teams. I had two coolers full from the cooks that the judges did not take and it was divided up between some of the workers at the event. The extra meat in the boxes was eaten by the workers as well. The only waste here was the meat that was on the plates to be judged and I don't consider that a waste because it served its purpose.

I have seen judges who come to a contest and take a minimal bit from the entrie and then it goes in a cooler. I have listened to other judges talk about it as well. My goal is to make sure that all judges take this as serious as we do as cooks. I also have a obligation to the cooks who attend our contest to provide them with the best judging possible.

I also understand the sacrifice that judges make to come and judge and want to provide those who want to take some meat home that as well.

It is my hope that this will become a standard for all contest.

This is my opinion as a cook, judge, and orginizer.

Roy Murray
Tarheel Smokers
Hog Fest in Historic Edenton orginizer.

cmcadams
05-02-2011, 12:09 PM
I've cooked and judged, and I don't see any sacrifice that judges make. They travel because they want to, not because their presence is that important. With good communications, most events I've seen would have no problem getting judges that are trained a bit in what to look for, etc.

I've seen several judges that are there primarly for the take homes, with no regard to the time and money put in by the cooks. I'd prefer all events not allow judges to take anything from the judging table. As a cook, I'm happy to give out samples after, but I'd rather know that the judges are actually judging, not hoarding leftovers.

theflints01
05-02-2011, 12:45 PM
Isn't this part of the table captains job, to make sure the judges are actually judging? We are instructed to take at least two tastes of every turn in, but not gorge ourselves as that can affect your palate. With the size of some of the slices and chunks of brisket and pork and all the chicken thighs, there will be leftovers no matter who's judging. Why toss good meat, it makes a great pot of beans.

They travel because they want to, not because their presence is that important

Yesterday I drove 130 miles to judge a comp. Many judges came from farther. If you want local yokels and "celebrity judges" resposible for your payoff, good luck. When I compete I feel very comfortable that we in the PNWBA get experienced judges at all of our comps and get judged fairly and evenly. I do think it's important. If they want to keep the leftovers, fine by me.

Sawdustguy
05-02-2011, 12:49 PM
I can see the points that have been presented but I really hate to see good edible food just tossed in the trash.

Warthog
05-02-2011, 01:15 PM
I have never judged a comp where the judges were not allowed to take home the meats if they so wanted to. Again it always seems competitors like to pick at the judges. You have 6 judges at a table plus a table captain. Every competitor has an equal chance of winning at a comp. As for showing the meats to competitors after the judging, this I have never seen. How the hell is anyone going to know what meat belonged to what competitor. I have only judged KCBS comps. I see nothing in the rules regarding leftovers. If some of you feel that a leftover rule should be added to the judging rules let the KCBS know. Most judges are very serious about judging. I feel the new judges may require some seasoning. Everything being equal I find judging to be very fair.

Alexa RnQ
05-02-2011, 01:21 PM
We have a problem out here with judges approaching teams and trying to "profile" or identify products.

Once upon a time, I would have had no problem with judges taking food home. With egregious behavior displayed like profiling or nibbling, apparently measures have to be put into effect to ensure proper judging behavior. Restricting leftovers will certainly curb those problems.

rweller
05-02-2011, 01:21 PM
I just judged a contest Saturday. I drove 240 miles round trip at 20 miles per gallon thats 12 gallons of gas at 4 dollars per gallon thats $48.00, plus my whole Saturday(left at 6:45 am home at 5:00 PM). Do you really think I came to judge just so I could take home my leftover BBQ samples? One piece of chicken had blood running out of it. Come on give me break.

For the Gas price alone I could have went to one of your fellow competitors and bought a lot of BBQ and not had to drive 240 miles and spend a whole day doing it.

What does it hurt to let the judges take home what ever they don't eat?

I understand your complaint but you have to understand from a judges point of view also.

swamprb
05-02-2011, 02:02 PM
I have no problem with judges taking home my entries, in fact I try to put extra meat in the boxes for the Table Captains and helpers. I just judged a contest with 34 teams and didn't notice any CBJ's taking bird bites to fill their Ziplocks. The cooks in attendance judging all agreed we just can't see taking a bite and packing it off to eat later, but that's their perogative. I did get some looks for using my ziplock for a garbage bag!

Personally I'd like to see more CBJ's come by my camp before the judges meeting and say Hi or wish us Good Luck or stick around for the awards ceremony, the good ones do and we appreciate their efforts.

mobow
05-02-2011, 02:06 PM
I have seen judges who do seem to be very motivated to take home some meat. They will take large samples of pulled pork or make sure they take the largest rib or whatever. But, they usually also spend their time to judge the meat. It is rare for me to see a judge not taking a good size bite or bites and rushing to score the sample so they can get the sample in the cooler. We are not rushed for time.. As for profiling and everything else once that sample is thrown into a baggie the profiles are pretty mixed up with sauce from one being all over they other etc etc. I would hate to have to throw all the meat away. It would seem like a great waste to me. Though since I judge so many contest I have become picky as to what I keep. If I throw your sample in the trash it is not a good sign. keith

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-02-2011, 02:11 PM
I just judged a contest Saturday. I drove 240 miles round trip at 20 miles per gallon thats 12 gallons of gas at 4 dollars per gallon thats $48.00, plus my whole Saturday(left at 6:45 am home at 5:00 PM). Do you really think I came to judge just so I could take home my leftover BBQ samples? One piece of chicken had blood running out of it. Come on give me break.

For the Gas price alone I could have went to one of your fellow competitors and bought a lot of BBQ and not had to drive 240 miles and spend a whole day doing it.

What does it hurt to let the judges take home what ever they don't eat?

I understand your complaint but you have to understand from a judges point of view also.

$48 bucks and a Saturday. Wow the cooks are truly lucky to have somebody so dedicated. Your personal sacrifice is shining example to us all.

JD McGee
05-02-2011, 02:17 PM
I have no problem with it...I also think it is inevitable over time that certain judges may become familiar with a certain team's (or more) flavor profile...especially where teams and contest are few.
We have had judges tell us they absolutely loved our ribs, or whatever. In a larger bbq demographic I don't think that would happen very often.

Slamdunkpro
05-02-2011, 02:21 PM
Just curious - how can a judge take "your" product and show it to other teams when they have NO IDEA who's product they are judging? Also, how can a judge show "their" team what "you do and your flavor profile" if they have NO IDEA who's product they are judging? Having judged KCBS, MBN, and North Carolina Pork Council, I can honestly state that I have absolutely NO IDEA who's product I am tasting/judging when judging "blind".

The last set of KCBS results I got had the team blind numbers printed on them (Salisbury) so I suppose if you were a judge and had baggies and a sharpie you could write the blind number of each of your samples in a separate baggie, then get a copy of the results to figure out who's sample was who's after the fact, but that seems like a lot of work for not a lot of information.

NRA4Life
05-02-2011, 02:30 PM
I judged this past Sunday in Liberty IN and I didn't take anything home. If I have an entry that is something that appeals to me while judging, I eat the rest of it right there after I've judged all the rest of the entries. I've never wanted to take any bbq home from a contest, I make enough of it for myself at home as it is with practice cooking and all. I had a couple pieces of brisket on Sunday that I wouldn't even have fed my dog...damn near hit JayAre in the face with my hand when the rubbery slice finally snapped.

Slamdunkpro
05-02-2011, 02:33 PM
..... with no regard to the time and money put in by the cooks.
As a judge this attitude irks me. I don't care how much time, effort, or money cooks spend. It doesn't matter one bit whether a cook drove 2 miles or 2000 to cook this event. All that matters to me as a judge is the sample on the place mat in front of me. It's either good or it's not and I score it based on the judging criteria laid out by KCBS (at KCBS events). Last time I checked, "Cook's time and money" wasn't a scoring category.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-02-2011, 02:36 PM
As a judge this attitude irks me. I don't care how much time, effort, or money cooks spend. It doesn't matter one bit whether a cook drove 2 miles or 2000 to cook this event. All that matters to me as a judge is the sample on the place mat in front of me. It's either good or it's not and I score it based on the judging criteria laid out by KCBS (at KCBS events). Last time I checked, "Cook's time and money" wasn't a scoring category.


neither is bite threw chicken skin or garnish but I bet both get judged in the back of the judges mind....:boxing:

ok off to my room I go...

fishinchef
05-02-2011, 02:50 PM
I cook and I judge as well, as a cook, in both cases, I spend money to do either, but as a cook, I have the chance to at least win some money, get a trophy and have bragging rights, as a judge, it is money expended with no financial return. Also as a judge, it is more than time & gas money in most cases, most of the time there is hotel and other misc expenses.

I will say that I take more than enough to sample adequately when judging and don't have a problem saving what I don't eat to take home. I have no idea whose product I have sampled either.

Juggy D Beerman
05-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Before I get started on this rant, I want to state my disclaimer. The rogue judges I am referring to are in the minority, but they give the good judges a bad name.

As a judge, I have witnessed other judges take a very small bite and then save the rest for eating later. As a table captain, it has been my observation the "low ball" judge at the table is usually the one who has the most leftovers in their cooler. As a competitor, I have witnessed a person who had judged a contest the previous year give this advice to a newbie judge who had never judged before, "Take a very small bite and take home all the leftovers you can, because most of the food is very good."

The one that chaps my hide the most is this. I have had judges come up to me and tell me how much they enjoyed a particular entry of mine and wanted my recipe. I have also seen on various internet forums where a judge has given praise to a team on how good their food at a certain contest because they judged it and found out whose entry it was they had judged.

The biggest thing about KCBS contests is supposed to be its blind judging. Judges are NOT supposed to know whose entry they judge that day. Because of the sanctity of blind judging, judges are not allowed to take notes about the entries and they are not allowed to take pictures either. Why are they then allowed to take that judged entry home with them?

Judges are not allowed to talk during the judging process. The reason for this is so no judge is influenced by another judges opinion(s) on any given entry. The last few times I have been a table captain, I have asked the rep if I may tell the judges at the table this information. No judge should remove any entry from their plate and place it in their cooler until all the score cards have been turned in. The reasoning for this is, if a judge takes only one or two entries from the plate, it can be interpreted by the other judges who have not yet finished judging that the other entries were not as good.

I would like to commend Tarheel for the policy he has started. I have been advocating that teams furnish leftovers for the judges to take home for several years.

Lager,

Juggy

Alexa RnQ
05-02-2011, 02:54 PM
As a table captain, it has been my observation the "low ball" judge at the table is usually the one who has the most leftovers in their cooler.
This is fascinating.

We know of two renowned "nibblers" whose nicknames are "5 and 6".

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-02-2011, 03:16 PM
As a judge this attitude irks me. I don't care how much time, effort, or money cooks spend. It doesn't matter one bit whether a cook drove 2 miles or 2000 to cook this event. All that matters to me as a judge is the sample on the place mat in front of me. It's either good or it's not and I score it based on the judging criteria laid out by KCBS (at KCBS events). Last time I checked, "Cook's time and money" wasn't a scoring category.

By the same token I don't care how much judges spend to get there. They were put there to judge BBQ and should be concentrating on "the sample on the place mat in front of them" and not how to get it from that mat to their cooler.

Warthog
05-02-2011, 03:41 PM
By the same token I don't care how much judges spend to get there. They were put there to judge BBQ and should be concentrating on "the sample on the place mat in front of them" and not how to get it from that mat to their cooler.

In the same token competitors should worry about the quality of their product rather then what the judges are doing. If you put out a good quality product the odds of winning are better then some of the crap I have I have seen come to the judging tables. Be men and stop trying to blame the judges for the poor quality product you produce. I feel this whole discussion concerning leftovers is just a bunch of crap. Over and over again you see threads here with competitors complaining about judges. Give it a rest.
If you don't like the judging then don't compete!

watertowerbbq
05-02-2011, 03:42 PM
I don't like it when the judges take food home. I am a judge and I've seen judges who seemed more interested in getting all of the food they could to take home and not so much on the judging itself. I've also seen judges who took food home, but seemed focused on the judging first. To avoid the problem all together, don't allow them to take the food home.

roksmith
05-02-2011, 03:43 PM
Yea.. I'm not impressed with what a judge pays or gives up to come judge a contest. The average competitor will spend several hundred dollars, travel several hours, and probably go home with nothing.
On a personal note..I suppose putting extra meat that's been put in the boxes might not sound as bad to me if it hasn't gone cold yet, but a cooler of ribs and chicken with a bite out of each is just plain gross to me.

Slamdunkpro
05-02-2011, 03:43 PM
By the same token I don't care how much judges spend to get there. They were put there to judge BBQ and should be concentrating on "the sample on the place mat in front of them" and not how to get it from that mat to their cooler.
Absolutely!

Lake Dogs
05-02-2011, 03:56 PM
I've never seen a judge walk away from a table with BBQ in hand/pocket/baggie. The left-overs have always gone to the grazing table, and never a left-over that had a bite taken out of it. I'm not sure if this is a regional thing or a KCBS thing (walking away from a table with leftovers). Yeah, I see both sides of this. The only time I've ever seen it was from a grazing table, the left-overs of the left-overs, if you will. I tend to take it back for my dogs rather than put it in the garbage. Walking away from the table, with barbecue in hand? Not a good idea, IMHO.

To the back and forth about not caring about one another, I would suggest that 98% of CBJ's (regardless of sanctioning body) are there to judge the barbecue presented in front of them and take the responsibility seriously. Some have invested a few hundred dollars in the event. They do it because they enjoy it. Just like competitors. They invest a few hundred to a few thousand dollars (refer to MBN) per competition, take it seriously, and do it largely because they enjoy it. I think to dismiss either contribution is a mistake.

Tarheel
05-02-2011, 04:01 PM
In the same token competitors should worry about the quality of their product rather then what the judges are doing. If you put out a good quality product the odds of winning are better then some of the crap I have I have seen come to the judging tables. Be men and stop trying to blame the judges for the poor quality product you produce. I feel this whole discussion concerning leftovers is just a bunch of crap. Over and over again you see threads here with competitors complaining about judges. Give it a rest.
If you don't like the judging then don't compete!

I would have to disagree with you on this one. The intent here was to ensure judges spend the time and effort to judge the product presented and not worry so much about taking those six pieces in front of them home. I had food for them to take home provided by the same cooks that turned in that on there plates.

I am trying to cover all sides of the issue and come up with a solution.

G$
05-02-2011, 04:01 PM
This is fascinating.

We know of two renowned "nibblers" whose nicknames are "5 and 6".

What are the chances that those two guys ALWAYS get my turn in? It is unbelievable!

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-02-2011, 04:02 PM
In the same token competitors should worry about the quality of their product rather then what the judges are doing. If you put out a good quality product the odds of winning are better then some of the crap I have I have seen come to the judging tables. Be men and stop trying to blame the judges for the poor quality product you produce. I feel this whole discussion concerning leftovers is just a bunch of crap. Over and over again you see threads here with competitors complaining about judges. Give it a rest.
If you don't like the judging then don't compete!

Obviously we've struck a nerve with you. Maybe next time leave your igloo in the car.

Rick Hamilton
05-02-2011, 04:07 PM
I just judged a KCBS contest on Saturday and all the judges were instructed to throw away ALL of the entries on their plate after judging. It was explained by the contest organizer that the cooks didn’t want the judges to take anything home that they judged. That they (the cooks) only turned in entries for judging and NOT for anyone to take home.

I am not only a judge, but also a competitor, and I have NO problem with judges taking home ANYTHING after judging. It just seemed a total waste to throw away all that “left-over” meat! At other contests the left-overs are taken home and I share with my wife and/or enjoy them for lunch later that week.

I would love to hear opinions from other judges and competitors on this issue. The contest organizer DID provide some “non-judged” (already bagged) pulled pork for the judges to take home.

What is your opinion (and why)???



Was this a surprise to you coming to the contest or did you have advance notice that this was the policy?

I applaud Roy for this policy and was very happy to provide plenty of bbq to the judges after the event was over.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-02-2011, 04:10 PM
In the same token competitors should worry about the quality of their product rather then what the judges are doing. If you put out a good quality product the odds of winning are better then some of the crap I have I have seen come to the judging tables. Be men and stop trying to blame the judges for the poor quality product you produce. I feel this whole discussion concerning leftovers is just a bunch of crap. Over and over again you see threads here with competitors complaining about judges. Give it a rest.
If you don't like the judging then don't compete!

if its such poor product...why do they take it home?

I didnt see any one complaining about judges just about a questionable practices..I personally dont care if the want to take the left overs home..just judge it b4 it hits the zip lock...

NRA4Life
05-02-2011, 04:43 PM
but a cooler of ribs and chicken with a bite out of each is just plain gross to me.

Absolutely!

Smokin' Hicks
05-02-2011, 05:08 PM
i don't think they should be allowed to take any food home.....my reason being i have heard to many stories of judges coming to these comps just so they can take a cooler of food home....maybe if they were not allowed this would eliminate some of the not so good judges from the comp scene.....why not donate the food to a food pantry?

Ford
05-02-2011, 05:13 PM
Look at it from a food safety standpoint. I am servsafe certified. I know the rules for cooling meat. Let's say that a judge gets 6 pieces of chicken (130F) at noon, they take a bite adding all kinds of bacteria from their mouth to each piece. Then they put them in a ziplock bag and into a small cooler with either ice or an ice pac. There's now way it cools within the timeline specified by Servsafe, especially while adding additional food every half hour. So by 1:30 they have 3 lbs+ of meat that is in the danger zone. To cool that amount safely would take a minimum of about 10 lbs of ice and a 20lb bag would be safer. So then they leave at 2pm and drive 3 hours getting home at 5:00 and they have a cooler full of potential stomach problems.

Why would anybody want to take that chance? At a minimum to cool that I would want a 64qt rolling cooler with 20lbs of ice. Then if you want to take it home go for it but any coolers that you can carry over your shoulder won't do the job.

paydabill
05-02-2011, 06:01 PM
I guess I am on the Toss it side. All I need is someone to get done judgin throw a bag in their truck and then walk around for a couple of hours talking to team. Then they go home eat it, and POW!

Also - I have been at events where someone eats one bite from the end of a rib and judges it. Then puts the rest in their bag.

Red Valley BBQ
05-02-2011, 06:33 PM
If you don't like the judging then don't compete!

I compete because I like the challenges that competition BBQ brings. I like the comraderie with my fellow competitors. I like to feel that I belong in the "club." I also try my best at winning each and every contest I enter. I know every judge is not going to like my entries all the time, and that getting lucky and hitting the right table of judges is part of the gamble. But I also spend several hundred dollars of my hard earned money in a hobby that is a losing proposition for a majority of the teams, and I do this several times a year. As a competitor, I have the right to be upset when one judge gives me a 5 or 6 when the other five give 8's and 9's, as that judge has the right to not like my entry.

The contest is Hog Fest in Edenton. Yes, the judges were not allowed to take any of the items that they recieved to judge. My instructions were that the meat was sent in for one reason only and that was to be judged. I also explained that the cooks would be providing goodie bags of there meat for the judges who wanted them. It was not just pulled pork, it was all four meats and was provided by the cook teams. I had two coolers full from the cooks that the judges did not take and it was divided up between some of the workers at the event. The extra meat in the boxes was eaten by the workers as well. The only waste here was the meat that was on the plates to be judged and I don't consider that a waste because it served its purpose.

I have seen judges who come to a contest and take a minimal bit from the entrie and then it goes in a cooler. I have listened to other judges talk about it as well. My goal is to make sure that all judges take this as serious as we do as cooks. I also have a obligation to the cooks who attend our contest to provide them with the best judging possible.

I also understand the sacrifice that judges make to come and judge and want to provide those who want to take some meat home that as well.

It is my hope that this will become a standard for all contest.

As far as judges taking home the leftovers...if they want to take them home, let them do it. As a cook, I would prefer that the food I have entered be eaten, whether it is at the judging table, or at home in front of the tv. I do not like to think that that money I have spent on some of the best available meats was just being thrown in the trash after one or two bites. THIS IS NOT MCDONALD'S WE ARE TURNING IN!!!! A good number of teams are using the best quality meats available to them, and if I had spent over $100 on a Waygu brisket and found out that you had instructed the judges to throw it away...you and I would have had an issue. It is as though you do not trust the judges enough to be mature adults and do thier duty as judges. Sure there are a few bad eggs, but even olympic ice skating has it's french judge. How can you be sure that you didn't upset any judges by implementing that rule and they judged down because of it? As a CBJ myself, I have been known to save a few items that have crossed my plate so that my wife, who is also a CBJ, can try them as well. We look forward to discussing some of the excellent BBQ we have while judging. Does this mean I am a bad judge and just looking for a cheap meal too??

I do admire that you stepped forward and submitted your reasoning for instructing the judges the way you did, but with that knowledge, you can be assured that neither of the teams I cook with will be attending your event in the future. Maybe this should have been put to a vote at the cooks meeting and let the one's that are spending their money be the one's to decide. As a cook, I feel you have overstepped your authority to decide what constitutes the "best judging possible." In reality, shouldn't that be left to the KCBS?

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-02-2011, 07:41 PM
I

I do admire that you stepped forward and submitted your reasoning for instructing the judges the way you did, but with that knowledge, you can be assured that neither of the teams I cook with will be attending your event in the future. Maybe this should have been put to a vote at the cooks meeting and let the one's that are spending their money be the one's to decide. As a cook, I feel you have overstepped your authority to decide what constitutes the "best judging possible." In reality, shouldn't that be left to the KCBS?

I feel the exact opposite. I commend him for stepping up and stopping "the eaters.". I may travel to his next event because I know those judges will skip it and move on to another contest to fill their coolers.

Tarheel
05-02-2011, 07:45 PM
As far as judges taking home the leftovers...if they want to take them home, let them do it. As a cook, I would prefer that the food I have entered be eaten, whether it is at the judging table, or at home in front of the tv. I do not like to think that that money I have spent on some of the best available meats was just being thrown in the trash after one or two bites.
I do admire that you stepped forward and submitted your reasoning for instructing the judges the way you did, but with that knowledge, you can be assured that neither of the teams I cook with will be attending your event in the future. Maybe this should have been put to a vote at the cooks meeting and let the one's that are spending their money be the one's to decide. As a cook, I feel you have overstepped your authority to decide what constitutes the "best judging possible." In reality, shouldn't that be left to the KCBS?

Everyone has an opinion and you are intitled to yours. Just so you know all the facts here. The cooks were told this at the cooks meeting and I had no one disagree with it, in fact, like I said earlier I had two coolers of meat that was provided by the cooks left after the judges got what they wanted. All of the extras including the extra meat in the turn in boxes was consumed by the workers.

Once you take one or two bites from a sample there is usually not that much left if you bite enough to get a good idea how the taste and tendernes is. I can tell you that this is the way I do it at my contest and have for several years now. All of the cooks at our contest seem to have a very good time and enjoy them selfs and the other cooks here.
As far as oversteping my authority it is well within my authority as an orginizer to try and provide the best for both my cooks and my judges. Which is what I think we accomplished.
You are right about the fact you have a choice of where you can go.

Tarheel
05-02-2011, 07:48 PM
I feel the exact opposite. I commend him for stepping up and stopping "the eaters.". I may travel to his next event because I know those judges will skip it and move on to another contest to fill their coolers.


I hope it will be like that in Louisville this weekend, cause I will be there. Look foward to meeting you.

SaucyWench
05-02-2011, 11:08 PM
I've cooked and judged, and I don't see any sacrifice that judges make. They travel because they want to, not because their presence is that important. With good communications, most events I've seen would have no problem getting judges that are trained a bit in what to look for, etc.

Wow! You really want your cooking judged by judges that are "trained a bit"? If judges are so unimportant, why aren't you staying home on weekends and cooking for the family & friends and giving them score cards? (Bet you'd win!) There are times when staying home & doing our own cook would be much more rewarding than traveling miles to a competition and ending up judging pork mush or shoe leather brisket, and comments like yours will make it even harder for me to justify the expense when you imply that cooks have such disdain and dislike judges so intensely.

I do judge because I want to, because I love BBQ, because I actually believe in promoting the sport of BBQ. I always stay for awards, I love getting to know the teams, visiting new places, and yes (gasp!) sometimes I have taken home my leftovers. And I truly hope that most competitors have more respect for judges than you do.

cmcadams
05-02-2011, 11:19 PM
As a judge this attitude irks me. I don't care how much time, effort, or money cooks spend. It doesn't matter one bit whether a cook drove 2 miles or 2000 to cook this event. All that matters to me as a judge is the sample on the place mat in front of me. It's either good or it's not and I score it based on the judging criteria laid out by KCBS (at KCBS events). Last time I checked, "Cook's time and money" wasn't a scoring category.

In the context in which I said anything about no respect given to the cooks had to do with the fact that some judges think the food is just there to take home. Most judges aren't like that, but some are. And what I meant by it is that the judges' job is to pay attention to their judging without thought to taking home food. The cooks spent a whole lot more money to be there, and most will go home with nothing in prizes.

bbqbull
05-02-2011, 11:44 PM
I am sorry ive been gone for a few days but here is my take on leftovers from a comp.
I wish the organizer would pre-arrange with a food bank to come onsite of a comp and whisk the un-eaten food away. I realize that lots of folks turn in more portions than judges for appearance.
Why not feed the hungry folks?
In our little community when we have left over food from our chicken dinners that's what we do. They are thrilled for the awesome food.

Chenernator
05-03-2011, 12:09 AM
I have no problem with judges taking home my entries, in fact I try to put extra meat in the boxes for the Table Captains and helpers. I just judged a contest with 34 teams and didn't notice any CBJ's taking bird bites to fill their Ziplocks. The cooks in attendance judging all agreed we just can't see taking a bite and packing it off to eat later, but that's their perogative. I did get some looks for using my ziplock for a garbage bag!

Personally I'd like to see more CBJ's come by my camp before the judges meeting and say Hi or wish us Good Luck or stick around for the awards ceremony, the good ones do and we appreciate their efforts.

I would also like to stop by prior to the judges meeting, but the KCBS rules state, "Judges may not fraternize with teams on turn-in days until the conclusion of judging." That's basically a time preference, since I'm typically hitting the road after judging is done. If time permits Friday night or Saturday afternoon, I do like to swing by to visit teams I know. Judges and teams shouldn't be adversaries. Afterall, we share the same interest - the pursuit of excellent BBQ.

AZScott
05-03-2011, 12:13 AM
I personally am not a fan of judges taking it home. By not having them package it up they aren't going to conserve that 2nd bite for later that night in front of the tv. I remember the one time I judged the first bite was strictly for tenderness and the second was for taste. Sometimes a third was necessary when another point was on the fence. There are too many things you are trying to pay attention to for both categories that it just makes sense to do it.

I think that if an organizer had that policy and requested extra food from the cooks if possible for doggie bags they would have a lot more food than some pre nibbled pieces they are taking home now.

Smokedelic
05-03-2011, 01:41 AM
Here we go...

As a competition cook, I enter contests, and turn my food in, in order to have it judged....at the contest. I don't turn in food so that it can be enjoyed for lunch later in the week, or in front of the tv on Sunday night. Using it for any other purpose than to score it for the contest at which it was submitted is inappropriate.

I put more food in the box than is required solely because the feedback I've received from judges is that it helps my appearance scores. If the only reason it helps my appearance scores is so that there's extra food for you to take home, then please don't judge my food anymore. It is not there to feed you later in the week. The food I turn in is not yours, it's mine. The fact that it goes to your table doesn't make it yours either. I would much rather it go to volunteers at the contest, who work much harder than you or I, in order to put on an event.

I have no concern about the distance you've driven or the money you've spent in order to judge my food. Just as you have none of those concerns for me. Your only purpose is to sit there and judge my food, to the best of your ability, without concerning yourself with leaving enough for lunch later in the week.

If I were interested in feeding you, I would be catering and not competing, but I'm not interested, so I'm not catering, I'm competing. I'm not sure where the notion started that, as a judge, you have the "right" to take my food, or my competitors food, home with you as your compensation for judging, but you don't. It's cooked to be judged and scored at the contest, period. Eat all you want in order to do the best job you can do to score it properly, and then leave it in the judging tent, where it belongs. Because, after all, it's a barbecue competition, not your meal plan.

...alrighty then. I feel better.

Bentley
05-03-2011, 02:20 AM
Toss leftovers.
Just saw the classic case of one bite then load up the zip loc bag this weekend in Liberty, IN. As a judge I am truly embarrassed that this type of judge exists and is deciding the fate of hard working cooks that are putting their all into their turn in boxes.

I also want to add that this judge was a new judge with less than five contests judged, and for each category was the first one done filling out the scorecard.

I just finished my 25th contest and I do the exact same thing, one bite. That is all I need, pretty sure bite two is going to be no different. Now granted, my bite is probably a little bigger then most folks...I am 325lbs, and even with one bite, I am just about done when that 6th piece of brisket hits my mouth...I garantee, if I am taking 2 or 3 bites of everything, by the middle of pork, no team is getting a fair shake with my judging because I would be so ready to Yak I would have to start chewing and spitting in bucket...

I do not take leftovers, but your post is lost on me...

If judges wanna take food home, knock yourself out!

Crash
05-03-2011, 05:09 AM
After reading this thread in its entirety, I feel the need to change my answer. Sorry judges, too many valid points against ya'll taking home the leftovers.

smalls65
05-03-2011, 07:15 AM
The contest is Hog Fest in Edenton. Yes, the judges were not allowed to take any of the items that they recieved to judge. My instructions were that the meat was sent in for one reason only and that was to be judged. I also explained that the cooks would be providing goodie bags of there meat for the judges who wanted them. It was not just pulled pork, it was all four meats and was provided by the cook teams. I had two coolers full from the cooks that the judges did not take and it was divided up between some of the workers at the event. The extra meat in the boxes was eaten by the workers as well. The only waste here was the meat that was on the plates to be judged and I don't consider that a waste because it served its purpose.

I have seen judges who come to a contest and take a minimal bit from the entrie and then it goes in a cooler. I have listened to other judges talk about it as well. My goal is to make sure that all judges take this as serious as we do as cooks. I also have a obligation to the cooks who attend our contest to provide them with the best judging possible.

I also understand the sacrifice that judges make to come and judge and want to provide those who want to take some meat home that as well.

It is my hope that this will become a standard for all contest.

This is my opinion as a cook, judge, and orginizer.

Roy Murray
Tarheel Smokers
Hog Fest in Historic Edenton orginizer.

Well said!!!!!! :thumb:

JayAre
05-03-2011, 08:22 AM
I judged this past Sunday in Liberty IN and I didn't take anything home. If I have an entry that is something that appeals to me while judging, I eat the rest of it right there after I've judged all the rest of the entries. I've never wanted to take any bbq home from a contest, I make enough of it for myself at home as it is with practice cooking and all. I had a couple pieces of brisket on Sunday that I wouldn't even have fed my dog...damn near hit JayAre in the face with my hand when the rubbery slice finally snapped.

That was my first time judging, and i have to say, i was very disapointed in the quality that hit our table, wouldnt have wanted to take any of it home, but I did see 2 of them baggin it up. :doh:

Lake Dogs
05-03-2011, 08:28 AM
Interesting. I'm sheltered, I suppose. I've judged 80+ competitions over the years, but so far none have been KCBS. They've all been MIM, MBN, or unsanctioned contests that tend to follow the MIM/MBN style. I've never seen a judge walk away from a table with a to-go box or baggie. The meat on their plate went straight to the garbage (reference Ford's post about cleanliness). On most, if there is untouched meat remaining in the turn-in box, that's taken away and placed on a grazing table. As judges, IF there is time between we'll socialize around that table and nibble here and there, and THIS is where we discuss the merits of one entry vs. another (not at the judging table). I dont know that I've ever seen barbecue worth taking home survive (outlast) the grazing table. When I've taken home some barbecue from here, frankly it was for the dogs. They like barbecue too, and aren't quite as picky as I am, but that's another story...

So, what do KCBS comps do that facilitates/allows judges to walk away from a table with barbecue in hand? This really happens? If it's already been bitten, that's gross! I actually agree with the guys here that find this appalling. They actually bring coolers; like they're here to accumulate food? Really? I agree with the organizer on this, if this is what was going on. I would hope that the very seasoned CBJ, regardless of sanctioning body, would hold him/herself to a higher standard and not participate in the mess...

By the way, I'm not trying to say one sanctioning body is better than any other (above). I'm merely stating that apparently they handle left-over barbecue differently, and to me one seems ok, and the other doesn't seem ok at all....

JayAre
05-03-2011, 08:40 AM
Now that we have p**sed off all the judges, they will be handing out 5's left and right, can we go back to talking about pork collers now??

EatonHoggBBQ
05-03-2011, 08:54 AM
That was my first time judging, and i have to say, i was very disapointed in the quality that hit our table, wouldnt have wanted to take any of it home, but I did see 2 of them baggin it up. :doh:


What number table were you at?

DawgPhan
05-03-2011, 08:58 AM
The crazy part about this thread is that people are complaining about something that didnt happen. Every judge there could have taken some bbq home. They just couldnt take what was being judged home. This seems like the best of both worlds to me. Judges get to carry some awesome bbq home...teams that dont like carrying the bbq home get a place to get rid of it, and the volunteers get to grab a bite between running, ice, power, water, trash, and more trash. It seems like a very thoughtful and safe way to ensure that everyone gets a fair shake.

billm
05-03-2011, 09:02 AM
I say dont let them take home anything they score low...I once asked a judge at the table why they would take home food they didnt really like enough to give a good score to and they said it was for their dog..yea right
as a cook and a judge I have never felt compelled to bring home food from the judging table..

NRA4Life
05-03-2011, 09:15 AM
What number table were you at?

JayAre and I were at table 4.

NRA4Life
05-03-2011, 09:19 AM
That was my first time judging, and i have to say, i was very disapointed in the quality that hit our table, wouldnt have wanted to take any of it home, but I did see 2 of them baggin it up. :doh:

I have to agree with you, that was my 2nd time judging and it was not all that different (in quality) from the 1st time I judged. And you're right, a couple of them were baggin it at our table. Maybe the judging table with the "celebrity" judges got all the good Q.

Juggy D Beerman
05-03-2011, 10:04 AM
Here is something I failed to mention in my previous post concerning keeping the teams entries anonymous or unknown to the judges who evaluate those said entries.

At KCBS contests, teams are usually assigned a spot number that is also the number for their trays. When the entry is turned in, the contest rep places a sticker that has a new number and places it over the existing number on the tray. What is commonly done is the new number will be 101 higher than the original number. For example if your original number is 28, the new number on your tray will read 129. Many other numbers such as 102, 105, 110 are also used. The number that is added is supposed to only be known to the reps and no one else.

So imagine this scenario............

A judge keeps only one entry from each category to take home. The judge also makes it a point to remember those corresponding team's number on those entries. After the awards ceremony, that judge looks at the score sheets and sees the teams original number and the corresponding tray number. Most score sheets I have received as a competitor have both of these numbers on the score sheets. Now the judge KNOWS whose entries they have taken home.

Seems like a far stretch, doesn't it? Well I know for a fact it has happened because one of the judges who came up to me after the contest said that this is how they knew they had judged my food. One of the judge's post that I read on another forum stated he knew whose entry he judged was because he was given the code for the new numbers from one the contest reps that day.

I don't mind giving the judges leftovers. I do mind that a very few try to figure out whose entries they judge that day. This comment is not related to issue at hand, but I feel the contest score sheets given to teams after judging should not list the new assigned tray number given by the contest rep.

Vince RnQ
05-03-2011, 10:12 AM
This comment is not related to issue at hand, but I feel the contest score sheets given to teams after judging should not list the new assigned tray number given by the contest rep.

It is my understanding that the long awaited new software is going to only show the original team number on the printed score sheets. That will be a good thing.

Slamdunkpro
05-03-2011, 10:22 AM
A judge keeps only one entry from each category to take home. The judge also makes it a point to remember those corresponding team's number on those entries. After the awards ceremony, that judge looks at the score sheets and sees the teams original number and the corresponding tray number. Most score sheets I have received as a competitor have both of these numbers on the score sheets. Now the judge KNOWS whose entries they have taken home.

OK a judge figured out who they judged after the fact - so what? It's pretty long odds that that judge is going to be seated at a table that gets the same entry from you at the next event. It's even longer odds that they're going to be able to discern your particular flavor profile with any accuracy since the entries are getting more and more homogeneous with every passing event. The odds are even longer still that if they accomplish all this that they are going to have any real influence over your results.

PorkQPine
05-03-2011, 10:25 AM
Just curious - how can a judge take "your" product and show it to other teams when they have NO IDEA who's product they are judging? Also, how can a judge show "their" team what "you do and your flavor profile" if they have NO IDEA who's product they are judging? Having judged KCBS, MBN, and North Carolina Pork Council, I can honestly state that I have absolutely NO IDEA who's product I am tasting/judging when judging "blind".

They will not know the team but they will know how they scored it. If it was a 9-9-9 from them and the other judges they will know what scores high with the judges.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-03-2011, 10:39 AM
Here we go...

As a competition cook, I enter contests, and turn my food in, in order to have it judged....at the contest. I don't turn in food so that it can be enjoyed for lunch later in the week, or in front of the tv on Sunday night. Using it for any other purpose than to score it for the contest at which it was submitted is inappropriate.

I put more food in the box than is required solely because the feedback I've received from judges is that it helps my appearance scores. If the only reason it helps my appearance scores is so that there's extra food for you to take home, then please don't judge my food anymore. It is not there to feed you later in the week. The food I turn in is not yours, it's mine. The fact that it goes to your table doesn't make it yours either. I would much rather it go to volunteers at the contest, who work much harder than you or I, in order to put on an event.

I have no concern about the distance you've driven or the money you've spent in order to judge my food. Just as you have none of those concerns for me. Your only purpose is to sit there and judge my food, to the best of your ability, without concerning yourself with leaving enough for lunch later in the week.

If I were interested in feeding you, I would be catering and not competing, but I'm not interested, so I'm not catering, I'm competing. I'm not sure where the notion started that, as a judge, you have the "right" to take my food, or my competitors food, home with you as your compensation for judging, but you don't. It's cooked to be judged and scored at the contest, period. Eat all you want in order to do the best job you can do to score it properly, and then leave it in the judging tent, where it belongs. Because, after all, it's a barbecue competition, not your meal plan.

...alrighty then. I feel better.

Can I get an Amen!

PorkQPine
05-03-2011, 10:44 AM
Change the rule so you can only take home things you scored 8 or 9 and then watch the scores jump:) I am getting ready to head out Sat. morning on a 3 1/2 hour drive each way to judge a contest. My fuel expense will be $80 and a whole day will be away from the family. I love doing this and have never taken home food. If you are judging so you can take home food you should find another hobby.

Juggy D Beerman
05-03-2011, 10:45 AM
OK a judge figured out who they judged after the face - so what? It's pretty long odds that that judge is going to be seated at a table that gets the same entry from you at the next event. It's even longer odds that they're going to be able to discern your particular flavor profile with any accuracy since the entries are getting more and more homogeneous with every passing event. The odds are even longer still that if they accomplish all this that they are going to have any real influence over your results.

While I agree with your odds and homogeneous comment, that is not the point I am trying to make.

KCBS is supposed to be blind judging. This means the judge should NEVER know whose entry they judge at any time. One of the instructions given to the judges is this:

"If you speculate that you know which team presented a sample at your table, under no circumstances are you to indicate this to any team after judging has occurred."

Judges who try to figure out whose entry they judge are not doing their job properly.

bignburlyman
05-03-2011, 11:21 AM
Seems like a far stretch, doesn't it? Well I know for a fact it has happened because one of the judges who came up to me after the contest said that this is how they knew they had judged my food. One of the judge's post that I read on another forum stated he knew whose entry he judged was because he was given the code for the new numbers from one the contest reps that day.



I believe I read somewhere that judges discussing with the teams what entries they judged is a violation of the KCBS rules, and is grounds for revoking your CBJ status and for banning from future contests. I have had teams ask me after judging what I liked, if the entries were good, etc. I have also had teams ask me (especially in ancillary categories) if I judged a ..... entry that was ..... and presented ....... cause that was teams entry and wanted to know what the judges thought. I have had to lie to the teams because Yes, I did judge that but I tell them no, I don't remember that being on our table.

I put my best effort forward to judge fairly and to the best of my ability. I take my time and consider each entry. Most of the judges I have been around do the same. But I have seen the occasional rogue that makes all of us look bad. I always wait for those type of judges that I know to take a seat and then I sit at a different table. I usually throw the chicken and ribs away but have been known to take some pork and brisket with me. I don't feel there is anything wrong with this, but if I was told that no meat that was judged was allowed to take away I would be ok with that too.

bignburlyman
05-03-2011, 11:29 AM
While I agree with your odds and homogeneous comment, that is not the point I am trying to make.

KCBS is supposed to be blind judging. This means the judge should NEVER know whose entry they judge at any time. One of the instructions given to the judges is this:

"If you speculate that you know which team presented a sample at your table, under no circumstances are you to indicate this to any team after judging has occurred."

Judges who try to figure out whose entry they judge are not doing their job properly.

I agree, although the first contest I ever judged over 10 years ago, I had the BEST brisket entry I ever tasted. I still would like to know who cooked it so I could go kiss that cook right on the mouth!:shock:

JD McGee
05-03-2011, 11:37 AM
What are the chances that those two guys ALWAYS get my turn in? It is unbelievable!

Yep...had one of them myself last weekend...9's and 10's across the board...then bam...a 5...wtf? Btw...PNWBA uses a 10 point system...

Diver
05-03-2011, 11:55 AM
The contest is Hog Fest in Edenton. Yes, the judges were not allowed to take any of the items that they recieved to judge. My instructions were that the meat was sent in for one reason only and that was to be judged. I also explained that the cooks would be providing goodie bags of there meat for the judges who wanted them. It was not just pulled pork, it was all four meats and was provided by the cook teams. I had two coolers full from the cooks that the judges did not take and it was divided up between some of the workers at the event. The extra meat in the boxes was eaten by the workers as well. The only waste here was the meat that was on the plates to be judged and I don't consider that a waste because it served its purpose.

I have seen judges who come to a contest and take a minimal bit from the entrie and then it goes in a cooler. I have listened to other judges talk about it as well. My goal is to make sure that all judges take this as serious as we do as cooks. I also have a obligation to the cooks who attend our contest to provide them with the best judging possible.

I also understand the sacrifice that judges make to come and judge and want to provide those who want to take some meat home that as well.

It is my hope that this will become a standard for all contest.

This is my opinion as a cook, judge, and orginizer.

Roy Murray
Tarheel Smokers
Hog Fest in Historic Edenton orginizer.

I have attended Roy's contest as both a competitor and a judge and I found this to be a thoughtful and effective solution. Each time it was brought up at the cooks meeting with a vast majority's approval.

As a judge, I tend to fall the other way and consume too much. If I'm not careful, I'll attack the chicken like it's dinner time.

I have taken food from the table as a judge at other events but have never consumed it later. My teenage son goes with me to all events and he will eat anything. I figure it saves me a few overpriced funnel cakes.

Bigdog
05-03-2011, 12:14 PM
It would seem, to this observer, that the real issue here is not whether or not the judge takes samples, rather if the judge is doing his or her job correctly. So then, why not focus on the real issue and stop argueing about coolers? My .02 MMV:wink:

Lake Dogs
05-03-2011, 12:33 PM
It would seem, to this observer, that the real issue here is not whether or not the judge takes samples, rather if the judge is doing his or her job correctly. So then, why not focus on the real issue and stop argueing about coolers? My .02 MMV:wink:

Please dont confuse a good argument with truth or logic!!!

Danged party pooper!

:thumb:

NRA4Life
05-03-2011, 01:18 PM
It would seem, to this observer, that the real issue here is not whether or not the judge takes samples, rather if the judge is doing his or her job correctly. So then, why not focus on the real issue and stop argueing about coolers? My .02 MMV:wink:

I'd say the issue is can the judge do his/her job correctly if they are concerned with having something to place in their cooler to take home. Does the fact that they are able to take home food that they have taken a bite out of influence how much they sample, or where they sample it from on the contestant's entry? Is the focus on the job at hand of judging, or is it on ensuring the cooler is filled with judging an entry the secondary mission?

cmcadams
05-03-2011, 01:35 PM
This isn't meant to be inflammatory, but would someone tell me what sacrifice judges make? I've judged a few competitions myself, and I've traveled to them and stayed in a hotel. I did it because I enjoy the competition atmosphere and like barbecue, and think I can judge fairly. But I get something from it.

If I got nothing from it, that's a sacrifice. No master judge travels 8 states away if they don't want to do it.

olewarthog
05-03-2011, 01:49 PM
I would hope that most cook teams believe that those who are there only to eat & fill coolers are a very small percentage of judges at any event. Since KCBS drops the low score, wouldn't take care of any "eaters" who score unfairly low?

The contests I judge (GBA) allows judges to bag only what they have left on their palette at the judging table. Captains remove the boxes as judges are marking their final scores. The boxes are placed on a grazing table and the contest organizer & their volunteers get what they want first. Judges may then add to their bags from the grazing table. I hate to see food thrown away. I have yet to see a contest where there was not a significant amount of meat left after everyone had "grazed".

bbq.tom
05-03-2011, 02:11 PM
As a judge, I normally take two bites of each product in each meat category in order to judge the taste and tenderness completely. One bite from each side of the piece of chicken and one from both sides of a rib - in order to make sure not just one side is done/over-done whatever, one bite from EACH different kind of meat in each of the pulled pork category containers (bark, slice, chopped, whatever), and at least one from each different kind of brisket part in each container (unless only a slice is presented in which case at least one bite from the middle portion after pulling it apart and one from an end).

I think that numerous responders have gotten the wrong impression and/or off the track as far as this thread's intent. As the OP, I asked about the disposition of what was left-over ON the judge's plate AFTER the judging of each category was completed. The reason for this question was that there were numerous comments about the amount of meat being thrown in the garbage can by the judges. The five other judges and the table captain at my table all agreed that it was a shame that so much meat was being thrown away. It is NOT my intent to "take home" enough food for meals for the following week, nor to attempt to use any meat for "profiling" or other abhorrent acts! It is simply to "finish" consuming that which I had begun consuming. It is NOT about taking food home from a contest, but rather about conservation versus waste. The amount of meat in a turn-in box, or the amount of cost associated with cooking the meat, or a judge’s expense, or other meat/food being provided by the teams and/or organizer, or the “grazing table”, or the starving children in Africa, or ANYTHING else is NOT the issue. The issue is whether a judge should be allowed to take home left-over meat on his plate after judging.

Roy ran a great contest and I feel that I have done him a great disservice by this thread being connected to his contest; however, I did want to hear from other judges and competitors as to their opinion on this subject. I apologize if feathers were ruffled and disharmony reigned over and amongst the brethren. That was NOT my intent.

Podge
05-03-2011, 02:51 PM
For the bites I want a judge to take of the product I’ve submitted to him/her, there won’t be enough to mess with to want to pack up. And all this “oh, my, it’s such a shame to waste so much food and just throw it away”.. :drama:

The raw meat us competitors throw away from trimming is probably more than what is thrown away after a judge takes their bites. And if you’re a judge who sees it as making a sacrifice to judge, should probably find another hobby. Anything you enjoy doing is not a sacrifice.

Rookie'48
05-03-2011, 03:04 PM
WOW!!!

I can't believe the chit storm going on over this. As a KCBS Master CBJ who judges 12 to 15 comps (all KCBS) a year this whole thread has turned what should be a non-issue into a semi-war.
KCBS doesn't address the leftover issue, so that means that it's left to the organizer to decide it. I've been fairly vocal about the very few judges that seem to be there primarely to fill a cooler. I feel that the judges should be there to judge first, eat second. If the judge can take a good bite or two & give a faire score why should he throw perfectly good food away if he'd rather take it home?
As far as the "sacrifice" or cost of judging / competing ..... that has not one farkin' thing to do with the price of tea in China. I do it because it's my way to relax, enjoy visiting with my friends, and having a good time. I bought a travel trailer so that I wouldn't have to stay in motels when I travel to comps away from home. I usually show up on Friday evening to visit with folks that I know and to make new friends. The Friday evening visits are one of the main reasons that I spend my money to be there. As far as having a cooler ..... those of you who know me are aware of what I have in my cooler.
I normally don't take leftovers home, but then again I'm usually a minimum of four hours away from home. If my trailer is close to the comp and I can get the food back to my fridge before awards, then I might keep the food. If not, then no.
Anyway, this whole thread seems to have gotten way off track from what bbq.tom origonally posted.

Bigdog
05-03-2011, 03:32 PM
Please dont confuse a good argument with truth or logic!!!

Danged party pooper!

:thumb:
LOL :thumb:
As a judge, I normally take two bites of each product in each meat category in order to judge the taste and tenderness completely. One bite from each side of the piece of chicken and one from both sides of a rib - in order to make sure not just one side is done/over-done whatever, one bite from EACH different kind of meat in each of the pulled pork category containers (bark, slice, chopped, whatever), and at least one from each different kind of brisket part in each container (unless only a slice is presented in which case at least one bite from the middle portion after pulling it apart and one from an end).

I think that numerous responders have gotten the wrong impression and/or off the track as far as this thread's intent. As the OP, I asked about the disposition of what was left-over ON the judge's plate AFTER the judging of each category was completed. The reason for this question was that there were numerous comments about the amount of meat being thrown in the garbage can by the judges. The five other judges and the table captain at my table all agreed that it was a shame that so much meat was being thrown away. It is NOT my intent to "take home" enough food for meals for the following week, nor to attempt to use any meat for "profiling" or other abhorrent acts! It is simply to "finish" consuming that which I had begun consuming. It is NOT about taking food home from a contest, but rather about conservation versus waste. The amount of meat in a turn-in box, or the amount of cost associated with cooking the meat, or a judge’s expense, or other meat/food being provided by the teams and/or organizer, or the “grazing table”, or the starving children in Africa, or ANYTHING else is NOT the issue. The issue is whether a judge should be allowed to take home left-over meat on his plate after judging.

Roy ran a great contest and I feel that I have done him a great disservice by this thread being connected to his contest; however, I did want to hear from other judges and competitors as to their opinion on this subject. I apologize if feathers were ruffled and disharmony reigned over and amongst the brethren. That was NOT my intent.
Well put. I honestly believe that this is a good topic and thread. My feelings are that if a judge does a good job, then it should be up to them what they do with the leftovers. But I also understand and agree that a contest should be able to specify if coolers are allowed or not. Especially if they are trying to keep the judges away that are just there for the leftovers, which I believe we all agree is bad.
WOW!!!

I can't believe the chit storm going on over this. As a KCBS Master CBJ who judges 12 to 15 comps (all KCBS) a year this whole thread has turned what should be a non-issue into a semi-war.
KCBS doesn't address the leftover issue, so that means that it's left to the organizer to decide it. I've been fairly vocal about the very few judges that seem to be there primarely to fill a cooler. I feel that the judges should be there to judge first, eat second. If the judge can take a good bite or two & give a faire score why should he throw perfectly good food away if he'd rather take it home?
As far as the "sacrifice" or cost of judging / competing ..... that has not one farkin' thing to do with the price of tea in China. I do it because it's my way to relax, enjoy visiting with my friends, and having a good time. I bought a travel trailer so that I wouldn't have to stay in motels when I travel to comps away from home. I usually show up on Friday evening to visit with folks that I know and to make new friends. The Friday evening visits are one of the main reasons that I spend my money to be there. As far as having a cooler ..... those of you who know me are aware of what I have in my cooler.
I normally don't take leftovers home, but then again I'm usually a minimum of four hours away from home. If my trailer is close to the comp and I can get the food back to my fridge before awards, then I might keep the food. If not, then no.
Anyway, this whole thread seems to have gotten way off track from what bbq.tom origonally posted.

I always appreciate your perspective Dave. :thumb:

Jorge
05-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Lots if good points, and some on each side.

In this case, it was the contest organizer that seems to have responded to the desires of the teams attending his contest. It's his contest, the teams are his customers and I appreciate the fact that he listened and was responsive to their request.

I also believe that most judges do the right thing, and make every effort to judge each entry as fairly as possible. The solution, described in this case removes the temptation to put something away for later instead of fairly sampling the entries that I'm sure doesn't occur too often.

I have a hard time accepting the 'food waste' argument in comparison to the responsibility for each judge to do their best to fairly judge each entry. The scales tip towards the cook in terms of time, money, and effort that has been expended. If the lack of leftovers is going to adversely impact the number of CBJs willing to judge, then it's not a bad thing in my mind. At the end of the day, it's easier to get judges off the street if necessary than it is to get cooks.

Some cooks will whine about anything, just as some judges will always have a chip on their shoulder. If more judges were like Dave, Rookie48, I'd have no problem with coolers or leftovers because I have every confidence that he's going to give everyone the best effort possible every single time he judges.

LongTong
05-03-2011, 04:19 PM
All this about must having to toss leftover meat is nonsense! Once the meat is turned in, it's completely out of control of the cooks and its destiny is decided by those in possession. As an experienced CBJ, I was way over coolering meat by the third contest. On occasion, I will box up quaility stuff and share it with my family or others at the contest or whatever destiny decides. As a freedom loving American who thrives on less regulation, what to do with my meat is up to me. Eat it or beat it.

The point is all about sharing. That's what BBQ is in its purest form. Sharing. Nothing more, nothing less. Sharing with others. There are so many others at contests who would love to just have a bite. All the volunteers in the turn-in area to the guys watching the gate who usually miss the whole show and only get the aroma.

A turn-in box should always have more than just 6 pieces if possible. BBQ is all about the bounty of slow fire-cooked meat and nothing looks better than a full box of all that glory culminating from the hearts and minds of our beloved cooks. 6 ribs surrounded by two inches of perfectly manicured putting green doesn't look as good as a whole slab of those same tasty morsels surrounded by millimeters of green leaf. And...I know this is not a garnish contest!

Yeah, we'll eat just six but all those others involved would love a bite too. Every single time I give somebody some BBQ, it's guaranteed to put a smile on their face. That's how God wants to be. Share with others and put a smile on someones face. That's what it's all about. :-D

carlyle
05-03-2011, 04:44 PM
This is a good thread with lots of honest passion on both sides of the question. Both have valid opinions. It is good to be able to vent sometimes.

With our contest this year I will have judges coming from 6 states and Canada. The majority will have been here before. I welcome their return because of the good experiences I have had in the past. If I were to observe some of the behavior listed earlier, that judge would not be back.

I have always allowed those judges who want to take home their partially consumed judging sample. There are only 2 choices, take it home or throw it away. I hate to see quality food discarded. Judges are instructed to bring a cooler with ice for relatively safe transport.

Pre judging instructions also include eating enough of the entry so that it gets a fair judging. So far I have not been aware of judges abusing this policy. Nor have teams complained. If either of those change, then the policy gets reviewed.

Blessed be those cooks who put more than 6 portions in the turn in box. That goes to the left over table and gets distributed to our volunteers. They really appreciate it.
Judges are not allowed at the left over table.

This is not the perfect way of dealing with partially consumed judging samples, it is not the only way. It's just the way I choose to do things -- for now.

I do appreciate reading peoples opinions and experiences. Valuable lessons. Thanks.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-03-2011, 04:52 PM
All this about must having to toss leftover meat is nonsense! Once the meat is turned in, it's completely out of control of the cooks and its destiny is decided by those in possession. As an experienced CBJ, I was way over coolering meat by the third contest. On occasion, I will box up quaility stuff and share it with my family or others at the contest or whatever destiny decides. As a freedom loving American who thrives on less regulation, what to do with my meat is up to me. Eat it or beat it.


You give family,friends,contest folks chewed on samples of food? Gross.

LongTong
05-03-2011, 05:56 PM
You give family,friends,contest folks chewed on samples of food? Gross.

:hand: U R not getting the point of my reply. The point is BBQ and sharing. Yes, I only give my immediate family tastes of my samples and everyone else should have the remainder of the box shared amongst themselves...Since I have all of my teeth, my immediate family doesn't have a problem hanging a fang on the common rib...OK for clarification?

patkline9999
05-03-2011, 06:03 PM
I think they should not be taking home leftovers. What is it goes bad in their coolers which are sitting out all day, then the cooks might get blamed. Just another thought.

BogsBBQ
05-03-2011, 09:03 PM
:hand: U R not getting the point of my reply. The point is BBQ and sharing. Yes, I only give my immediate family tastes of my samples and everyone else should have the remainder of the box shared amongst themselves...Since I have all of my teeth, my immediate family doesn't have a problem hanging a fang on the common rib...OK for clarification?

It just sounds odd to be offering someone, even an immediate family member, a half eaten piece of meat. Just my opinion. But it's not nearly as gross as the time I judged and one of the other judges wanted the leftovers on MY plate to take home.

As a judge and competitor, I've got no problem with judges taking leftovers home as long as they 1) eat enough of each sample and don't purposely take tiny bites so just so they can bring the rest home, and 2) take enough time judging and don't rush through the process to put meat in the cooler. I've seen both of these things happen before, and it ticks me off. When I judge, the last thing I want to do is bring more meat home.

Rookie'48
05-03-2011, 10:42 PM
What is it goes bad in their coolers which are sitting out all day, then the cooks might get blamed. Just another thought.

And that is the reason that every contest that I've judged in the past year or so has the judges sign a consent & waiver form.

Bentley
05-04-2011, 02:28 AM
Seems like a far stretch, doesn't it? Well I know for a fact it has happened because one of the judges who came up to me after the contest said that this is how they knew they had judged my food.

And did you report them to KCBS since you know who it is? If not, dont complain about it when it happens again!

This isn't meant to be inflammatory, but would someone tell me what sacrifice judges make? I've judged a few competitions myself, and I've traveled to them and stayed in a hotel. I did it because I enjoy the competition atmosphere and like barbecue, and think I can judge fairly. But I get something from it.

If I got nothing from it, that's a sacrifice. No master judge travels 8 states away if they don't want to do it.

Excellent point...Also why I don't wanna hear teams whinning about how I spent all this money and the judges need to take it seriously as I do...Don't compete then..I dont care if you have spent $3 or $3000 to compete, it is your choice.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-04-2011, 09:44 AM
And did you report them to KCBS since you know who it is? If not, dont complain about it when it happens again!



Excellent point...Also why I don't wanna hear teams whinning about how I spent all this money and the judges need to take it seriously as I do...Don't compete then..I dont care if you have spent $3 or $3000 to compete, it is your choice.

The judges should take it seriously. We didn't cook that food to feed you. If you can't take it seriously don't judge. See how that works?

smokeyw
05-04-2011, 10:17 AM
I don't like to see waste. However, I understand why Roy made the rule concerning leftovers at Edenton. It sounds like a few judges have made it necessary for a rule that affects all of the judges. Lets face it though, it is a competition and that is the purpose of the meat to begin with. I don't feel any judge has a right to any extra meat. Judging is a priviledge. In my geographic area it is not easy to get into a competition as a judge unless you do it well in advance.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-04-2011, 10:27 AM
I don't like to see waste. However, I understand why Roy made the rule concerning leftovers at Edenton. It sounds like a few judges have made it necessary for a rule that affects all of the judges. Lets face it though, it is a competition and that is the purpose of the meat to begin with. I don't feel any judge has a right to any extra meat. Judging is a priviledge. In my geographic area it is not easy to get into a competition as a judge unless you do it well in advance.

I don't like to see waste either. I've got no problem with the judges taking home food from the grazing table. We've always got tons of extra food that I would donate to the grazing table for that purpose. This weekend the contest I'm cooking in is taking all the leftover food and distributing it to the local homeless shelters. There are plenty of ways to combat this problem that everyone can be happy with. I applaud Roy for thinking outside the turn in box on this one.

Arlin_MacRae
05-04-2011, 10:43 AM
As a new judge, I find this an interesting conversation to say the least. Personally, at our first comp (and only, so far), my wife and I decided not to take any meat home. No cooler. When the table captain asked who wanted take-home boxes I declined. After some really awesome chicken turn-ins I changed my mind because I wanted my wife's opinion on what I had judged. In the end we both had boxes and we swapped them at home. I wasn't taking stuff home as a couple of meals, but that's just me. YMMV.

Now, I have to wonder if some judges did NOT volunteer for Roy's comp because they couldn't take home leftovers. If so, those people need to seriously reassess their reasons for judging and maybe DQ themselves. I have to think people like that are clearly the minority amongst KCBS judges.

When I was a kid I was taught to eat every bite. Let me tell you something - that lesson is a hard one to leave behind. Faced with some truly wonderful chicken turn-ins it was jaw-clenchingly tough to watch that go in the garbage. I now don't think taking some of the good stuff home is a big deal at all. Again, if judges are there solely for that, they need to lose their badges.


Arlin

Stoke&Smoke
05-04-2011, 12:22 PM
Guess I'm of the don't care camp. I took home some BBQ when I was judging, but never anything that I didn't score well, and NEVER without first judging all samples presented.
Never took chicken home for the reasons Ford presented.

Only judged one comp where leftovers were not allowed. That was the old Racine comp, and it was a restriction required by the venue (Racine Zoo) for insurance purposes.

I did, on occaision, see some judges more concerned with packing their coolers, but a good table captain should put an end to that quickly if they're paying attention.

LongTong
05-04-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't like to see waste either. I've got no problem with the judges taking home food from the grazing table. We've always got tons of extra food that I would donate to the grazing table for that purpose. This weekend the contest I'm cooking in is taking all the leftover food and distributing it to the local homeless shelters. There are plenty of ways to combat this problem that everyone can be happy with. I applaud Roy for thinking outside the turn in box on this one.

Sharing with those in need is what it's all about. Amen, brother...

bbq.tom
05-04-2011, 12:48 PM
I don't like to see waste either. I've got no problem with the judges taking home food from the grazing table. We've always got tons of extra food that I would donate to the grazing table for that purpose. This weekend the contest I'm cooking in is taking all the leftover food and distributing it to the local homeless shelters. There are plenty of ways to combat this problem that everyone can be happy with. I applaud Roy for thinking outside the turn in box on this one.

I hate to say it, but I think that you are still missing the point. I DO have a problem with judges taking home food from the grazing table, as that food is NOT for them, but rather for the volunteers (including the Table Captains) and others who have not had an opportunity to judge the meat. It is WONDERFUL when logistics can be worked out for the grazing table and other meat from the teams to go to the local homeless shelter or soup kitchen or other organization that can use it to feed people in need. The question is whether the food left over on the judge's plate should be allowed to go home with the judge or thrown away.

I totally agree that NO judge should be allowed to take home food if he/she is NOT fulfilling his/her obligation to fairly and completely judge that which is in front of them to their best of their ability!

mobow
05-04-2011, 01:17 PM
but a good table captain should put an end to that quickly if they're paying attention.
Outstanding point and one of the benefits of the table captain certification process that is in effect now. An assertive table captain and an supportive KCBS rep can stop any problems immediatley. I think as we get more table captains that are trained rather than just snatched where they can be found we will see benefits. keith

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-04-2011, 01:25 PM
I hate to say it, but I think that you are still missing the point. I DO have a problem with judges taking home food from the grazing table, as that food is NOT for them, but rather for the volunteers (including the Table Captains) and others who have not had an opportunity to judge the meat. It is WONDERFUL when logistics can be worked out for the grazing table and other meat from the teams to go to the local homeless shelter or soup kitchen or other organization that can use it to feed people in need. The question is whether the food left over on the judge's plate should be allowed to go home with the judge or thrown away.

I totally agree that NO judge should be allowed to take home food if he/she is NOT fulfilling his/her obligation to fairly and completely judge that which is in front of them to their best of their ability!

I understand that at most comps the grazing table is for comp organizers and help. If the cooks provide EXTRA food for the grazing table after turn ins there should be plenty for everyone to take home. I know personally there are pounds and pounds of meat that I have no intention of taking home and eating. If my teammates dont take it then I toss it. I would be more than happy to donate that food to the judges so those who are tempted squirrel away their chewed on food will just sample the piece properly and fill their coolers later.

Juggy D Beerman
05-04-2011, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=Bentley;1629952]And did you report them to KCBS since you know who it is? If not, dont complain about it when it happens again!

Reread my original post, Bentley and tell me where I stated I knew who the judge was who said they knew that they had judged my entry. I never stated that because I did not know who it was. This incident occurred after the awards ceremony. After my conversation with the rogue judge, I tried to find the contest rep, but could not. I did call the KCBS office that following Monday and reported the incident. As you can guess, it did not do any good.

EatonHoggBBQ
05-04-2011, 02:35 PM
And that is the reason that every contest that I've judged in the past year or so has the judges sign a consent & waiver form.


I would think the waiver was for anything that may happen during the event. Once the food leaves the judging area there is no longer a liability to the contest organizer, or KCBS.

Divemaster
05-04-2011, 03:56 PM
I'm sorry that I didn't see this thread earlier, or maybe I should be glad that I didn't because I don't need my Blood Pressure up any higher...

As a judge this attitude irks me. I don't care how much time, effort, or money cooks spend. It doesn't matter one bit whether a cook drove 2 miles or 2000 to cook this event. All that matters to me as a judge is the sample on the place mat in front of me. It's either good or it's not and I score it based on the judging criteria laid out by KCBS (at KCBS events). Last time I checked, "Cook's time and money" wasn't a scoring category.

You have no idea how bad I want to respond to this. It is really taking just about all I have not to get my butt kicked off of this site.

If I were interested in feeding you, I would be catering and not competing, but I'm not interested, so I'm not catering, I'm competing. I'm not sure where the notion started that, as a judge, you have the "right" to take my food, or my competitors food, home with you as your compensation for judging, but you don't. It's cooked to be judged and scored at the contest, period. Eat all you want in order to do the best job you can do to score it properly, and then leave it in the judging tent, where it belongs. Because, after all, it's a barbecue competition, not your meal plan.

I couldn't have said it better.

BBQ Grail
05-04-2011, 04:21 PM
I've only cooked two comps and judged three so maybe my experience is limited but I've never had enough BBQ as a judge that I wanted to take home...

What distresses me most about this thread is the "I don't care" attitude towards our fellow BBQ enthusiasts. Judges who don't care about the cost for competitors...competitors who don't care about the cost for judges.

Damn, this not caring about each other, and it shows in this thread, is just wrong. You can't have a comp without the competitors and you can't have a comp without judges. We should care about each other.

Maybe I'm just a little idealistic. But shouldn't there be some sort of teamwork here? Why does it have to be an us against them? When I've competed I've known some of the judges and I like them as people and BBQ enthusiasts? Same for when I've judged towards the competitors.

I know someone is going to take exception to something I've said here. I've pretty much gotten use to that around this forum these days. But geez guys and gals it is just BBQ...

Slamdunkpro
05-04-2011, 04:53 PM
What distresses me most about this thread is the "I don't care" attitude towards our fellow BBQ enthusiasts. Judges who don't care about the cost for competitors...competitors who don't care about the cost for judges.

Let's back the truck up a second. I judge and cook and rep for MABA and help administer and run / organize events. I've been in every roll there is at a BBQ comp. I'm fully aware of the time/money/effort commitment of everyone at an event. Let's replace the "I don't care" with "every cook's efforts cancel themselves out" when it comes to the meat on the judging mat.

As a cook I expect to be judged on the merits of the food I put in the turn in box - nothing more and nothing less, and as a judge that's how I evaluate the samples in front of me. Yes, it's just BBQ and yes there is a tremendous and enjoyable community in BBQ that I'm proud to be part of but, when I'm sitting at the judge's table I have to operate in a vacuum and focus on the merits of the samples in front of me at that time. I can't think about "cook's money & effort"; how much I can save for later; how much money I spent in gas; the weather; or anything else except rating the meat samples in front of me. It's the best way I know how to show respect for the cooks as a judge - give them an full and honest evaluation.

Rich Parker
05-04-2011, 07:13 PM
:hug:

Bentley
05-04-2011, 08:49 PM
I tried to find the contest rep, but could not. I did call the KCBS office that following Monday and reported the incident. As you can guess, it did not do any good.


Good for you, judges like that need to be outed...Sorry I misunderstood your post.