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boogiesnap
04-18-2011, 09:16 AM
i turned in the wings.
and they were not recieved very well.
IMHO, they just taste better than a thigh.
unfortunately, the judges don't agree.
do y'all think i should just abandon the wing?

Lake Dogs
04-18-2011, 09:50 AM
A few problems with going with wangs:

First, if not fried it's almost impossible to get the skin to be bite through or crispy,
especially after sitting in a box with sauce on them for 20+- minutes. Rubbery skin
will get you killed ala. quick.

Second, how hot/warm are they 20 minutes later? They're thinner (than a thigh)
so my guess is they're colder (averages being averages).

Finally, less meat. Ultimately it comes down to the meat. In this case, less isn't
more.

rxcellentq
04-18-2011, 09:56 AM
I think they look great, probably taste great too. The problem is if they don't score then why turn them in. It's the same as the argument about what we like to eat vs what we cook for competition ribs etc

Q-Dat
04-18-2011, 10:01 AM
In a box of fried chicken which pieces usually disappear first? With most people I know its the wings.

What is the only part of the chicken to have entire restaurant chains built around it as a theme? Wings.

If you had most judges over for dinner and served wings they would probably love them, but for some reason sit them at a table with five other judges and all of a sudden its wierd. Ive never judged and Ive only cooked four comps, but all I have read and heard tells me that this is the case.

smalls65
04-18-2011, 10:02 AM
Wow!!!!!! from the pic's...thighs would've been WAY better!!!!!! what I learned from older teams...."ALWAYS GO WITH WHAT THE JUDGES ARE LOOKING FOR!!!" that's if you wanna win!!! But I'd love to have one of those wings..they look great!! :thumb:

G$
04-18-2011, 10:07 AM
Not only does the thigh look better, it appears as if it can actually levitate on it's own! Turn the thigh in next time, it will practically jump up to the judge.

Lake Dogs
04-18-2011, 10:21 AM
In a box of fried chicken which pieces usually disappear first? With most people I know its the wings.

What is the only part of the chicken to have entire restaurant chains built around it as a theme? Wings.

If you had most judges over for dinner and served wings they would probably love them, but for some reason sit them at a table with five other judges and all of a sudden its wierd. Ive never judged and Ive only cooked four comps, but all I have read and heard tells me that this is the case.

Actually, you hit on a major key as to why. It's because they cant be and/or aren't fried. Baked (basically), grilled, ends up with rubbery skin and very little meat. That's why. At home you can throw the skin away and have at the meat and just suck the sauce off the outside. Judging, 'ya can't. That skin must be eaten. Not good.

A major key to barbecue competitions is the simple understand that if you present it in your box (other than garnish), it will be eaten/sampled, whether the judge likes it or not. Think of it as averaging down, not averaging up. Wings will not cut it in a sanctioned comp. Perhaps in an anscillary, where we've fried the wings before, but not KCBS or others sanctioned.

boogiesnap
04-18-2011, 10:38 AM
good points all. thanks for the thoughts. i appreciate it.

hance, next time i cook some wings i'll snap a shot of a bite...the skin is as bite through as the thigh. it can be done.

but, i can't argue at all with your other points. i did get a call with them last year, so i worked on improving the cooking, hoping for a walk!

alas, i suppose back to the drawing board.
thanks again everyone.

INmitch
04-18-2011, 10:44 AM
We learened the hard way also. Tried it ONCE. We got a good smoke on them then sauced & finished on the grill. Best wings I've ever had. Our box looked awsome the way we arranged them. placed in the low 50's out of 70 some teams.

Arlin_MacRae
04-18-2011, 11:27 AM
We learened the hard way also. Tried it ONCE. We got a good smoke on them then sauced & finished on the grill. Best wings I've ever had. Our box looked awsome the way we arranged them. placed in the low 50's out of 70 some teams.

I've seen this too. I won't say where and I won't say who, but it was similarly dissapointing because the wings were GOOD. :confused:

Q-Dat
04-18-2011, 11:59 AM
On a UDS with no heat baffle of any kind I have no trouble getting wings with skin that is both crispy and bite through. That being said I aint about to turn them in.

ammoore
04-18-2011, 02:44 PM
I'm with ya...I love wings 100x more than thighs.
I turned them in during my last three contests last year.
First time we got a call
The next two times were not a success. (17th and 33rd)

Ultimately it is your call. If you know they are that good and they should score....give it another go. But don't get so attached to them that you are unwilling to abandon them if things aren't working out.

Just as an illustration for what the others are saying.....
At the contest with my 33rd place wings....I also entered the wing contest and finished 7th.
They may be awesome wings.....but it's hard to stack up against a thigh in the judges eyes. But if you figure it out, let me know. I'll jump on the anti-thigh campaign bandwagon.

landarc
04-18-2011, 02:46 PM
What was wrong with that thigh that you didn't turn it in? Did I miss something here?

Sweet Breathe BBQ
04-18-2011, 02:51 PM
I did wings this weekend, that I thought looked good and tasted good and placed 17th/26 yesterday. I did the same wings at Harpoon last year and got called for 4th/42. IMO the ones I turned in yesterday looked better than the ones at Harpoon.

Heard that one judge commented in regards to wings that were turned in "this team must be new b/c they turned in wings". IMO chicken should be judged on taste, texture and presentation without bias because it's not a thigh.

51895

boogiesnap
04-18-2011, 03:11 PM
What was wrong with that thigh that you didn't turn it in? Did I miss something here?

thats the point, the wing TASTED better!

i did side by side testing. same cooks, same flavor profiles. more than once.

it's all good though, i need to improve taste scores anyway, so i'll practice that with thighs and see how they go.

and BTW, those are nice looking wings sweets.

River City Smokehouse
04-18-2011, 03:24 PM
You're cooking for the judges. They will kill you almost every time with wings. Next time cook the wings for yourself and turn the thighs in to the judges. You'll not regret it.

Arlin_MacRae
04-18-2011, 04:26 PM
Heard that one judge commented in regards to wings that were turned in "this team must be new b/c they turned in wings". IMO chicken should be judged on taste, texture and presentation without bias because it's not a thigh.

You are correct sir, at least within the KCBS. Someone shorted you based on personal bias. If I ever get that way I'll turn in my badge. :mad:

nthole
04-18-2011, 05:29 PM
They may be awesome wings.....but it's hard to stack up against a thigh in the judges eyes. But if you figure it out, let me know. I'll jump on the anti-thigh campaign bandwagon.

I'm sorry, did you stack up against a thigh. Darn, I could have sworn the KCBS judging rules specifically state that you aren't to judge a piece of meat against anything else, just on the entry itself. I must be crazy :wink:.

I can't actually disagree, it just drives me nuts. Judges who are SUPPOSED to know that they should just be judging that entry compare it to another entry. We can't stop it and yet it's completely wrong.

For the record, we've been turning in wings and we are hit and miss with them. As to the comments that you can't get bite through skin on a wing, you're wrong. We get it everytime no problem, you're just not using the right method for that piece of meat.

It was great to meet you this weekend!

Q-Dat
04-18-2011, 05:30 PM
Apparently this is a legitimate problem. I may try to put together a letter to KCBS addressing the issue of bias, and hit all of the major forums to get as many people as I can to attach their name to it.

Arlin_MacRae
04-18-2011, 05:42 PM
Yep. A judge is to completely forget everything they saw or tasted before they bite into the next sample. Each one is unique and not to be compared to another. Easier on paper than in practice? Not if you remind yourself as often as necessary, I'd think.

big brother smoke
04-18-2011, 06:16 PM
I learned my lesson by turning in skinless thighs. I got a call, then none same process too. You should go with skin on thighs, if you want consistent results.

YMMV!

boogiesnap
04-18-2011, 10:12 PM
Apparently this is a legitimate problem. I may try to put together a letter to KCBS addressing the issue of bias, and hit all of the major forums to get as many people as I can to attach their name to it.

it might be more successful to remove the possibility of bias.

have the chicken category include only thighs.

especially when you hear of comments made by a judge sweet breathe referenced. how could you prevent that predisposition?

Bunny
04-18-2011, 10:57 PM
You're cooking for the judges. They will kill you almost every time with wings. Next time cook the wings for yourself and turn the thighs in to the judges. You'll not regret it.

That's funny you say that because Rich asked Tommy, our late nephew, at the American Royal, if the wings he had on the weber was his entry. He said, "No, this is our lunch." And Rich said, "No, that is your entry!" He took 7th place at the Royal!:heh:

Bunny
04-18-2011, 10:58 PM
That's funny you say that because Rich asked Tommy, our late nephew, at the American Royal, if the wings he had on the weber was his entry. He said, "No, this is our lunch." And Rich said, "No, that is your entry!" He took 7th place at the Royal!:heh:

Team name was Tom & Josh Orgasmic Slabs!

Hub
04-19-2011, 07:37 AM
If you're serious about competition cooking, ditch the wings. There is a very good reason why thighs are the most popular: Easy to cook to proper taste/texture and get good skin.

If you're just competing for fun, keep trying. As a judge I don't care what chunk of bird you do and would judge any piece fairly. But as a cook I can't recommend wings (too inconsistent)

ammoore
04-19-2011, 09:47 AM
I'm sorry, did you stack up against a thigh. Darn, I could have sworn the KCBS judging rules specifically state that you aren't to judge a piece of meat against anything else, just on the entry itself. I must be crazy :wink:.

I can't actually disagree, it just drives me nuts. Judges who are SUPPOSED to know that they should just be judging that entry compare it to another entry. We can't stop it and yet it's completely wrong.

For the record, we've been turning in wings and we are hit and miss with them. As to the comments that you can't get bite through skin on a wing, you're wrong. We get it everytime no problem, you're just not using the right method for that piece of meat.

It was great to meet you this weekend!

I hear ya....we all know how it is supposed to work and I do believe that most judges are doing it right. Unfortunately even if three of your 5 judges (judges that count) are doing it right, you're still screwed.

I did the wing thing....and I was hit and miss also. More miss than hit in my case. I've entered three wing contests and 7th has been my lowest finish. Wings as my chicken entry in a KCBS contest, I'm ashamed to even admit how low I can score. Just leaves you scratching your head.

Lake Dogs
04-19-2011, 10:29 AM
I hear ya....we all know how it is supposed to work and I do believe that most judges are doing it right. Unfortunately even if three of your 5 judges (judges that count) are doing it right, you're still screwed.

I did the wing thing....and I was hit and miss also. More miss than hit in my case. I've entered three wing contests and 7th has been my lowest finish. Wings as my chicken entry in a KCBS contest, I'm ashamed to even admit how low I can score. Just leaves you scratching your head.

Well, I over-stated the bite-through skin. You're right, and some of it can be *ok*. What if you get 5 or 6 judges who really dont care for skin; bite through or not? Think of it this way: A thigh has what, 5 to 1 meat to skin ratio, if not more? Wing has what: perhaps a 1 to 2 meat to skin ratio, or worse. Remember, it's a meat contest, not a skin contest. I'm one judge who happens to really hate skin. It's *ok* to me on a thigh if really REALLY thin and bite through, it's hardly noticed. But on a wing; its going to be extremely tough to mimic fried (and that was what I was trying to say earlier).

However, dont think there's a preference to thighs. It's not. Just most judges prefer to be judging meat; the more meat (vs. skin) the better, to a degree. The reason thighs tend to score better than breasts is because of tenderness, and to some degree taste because a breast can get bland and dry easily.

If you want to be judged consistently well, go with thighs. Hub is dead on!

boogiesnap
04-19-2011, 10:56 AM
^^^^

put that way, i can live with it pretty easy.

i suppose the amount of skin is what makes the wing taste better in my mind, but you're right, it is a meat contest.

Sweet Breathe BBQ
04-19-2011, 11:30 AM
It may be thick headed and perhaps over time I will change my opinion (especially if scores remain consistently middle of the road, though my higher scorers are still outweighing my lowerscores) but at this point I still respectfully disagree.

I look at it as an overall experience, that combination of the skin, meat, rub, sauce, injection, whatever it is that comprises that one bite. If it was just a meat competition then why bother with presentation. Or getting the flavor profile correct, for that matter. We all know its a sauce competition. LOL

All I ask is to be judged without bias, as if the judges were blindfolded and didn't have any idea as to what piece of the bird they were eating. I do think it may make a difference. After that if my chicken sucks then I deserve DAL.

boogiesnap
04-19-2011, 11:43 AM
It may be thick headed and perhaps over time I will change my opinion (especially if scores remain consistently middle of the road, though my higher scorers are still outweighing my lowerscores) but at this point I still respectfully disagree.

I look at it as an overall experience, that combination of the skin, meat, rub, sauce, injection, whatever it is that comprises that one bite. If it was just a meat competition then why bother with presentation. Or getting the flavor profile correct, for that matter. We all know its a sauce competition. LOL

All I ask is to be judged without bias, as if the judges were blindfolded and didn't have any idea as to what piece of the bird they were eating. I do think it may make a difference. After that if my chicken sucks then I deserve DAL.

agreed, but thats to US. to the JUDGES the overall experience is better with a thigh.

at least that is what i have gleaned from this thread.

Lake Dogs
04-19-2011, 01:21 PM
agreed, but thats to US. to the JUDGES the overall experience is better with a thigh.

at least that is what i have gleaned from this thread.

Yep, and it's just what it is.

First, know the judges, the average judge. If you get in a sanctioned
competition with 100% CBJ's, the average judge is in his 50's, is a he,
and is stone cold sober. Averages being averages, he's a non-smoker. That's average. There are plenty of women judges; maybe 30%? Anyway, your 50th percentile is that guy. Too spicy, too sweet, too tough, too mushy, you're toast. It's what it is. When working recipes, make sure you haven't been smoking and haven't been drinking. Otherwise what tastes great to you then isn't nearly so appealing as when you aren't.

Many have judged MANY competitions over the years. Me, I'm over 80 somewhere; probably about 100. I've seen just about everything under the sun, but there's always a surprise.

I, personally, LOVE hot wings. BUT, the skin, if not fried, isn't appealing to me. If I'm going to a barbecue competition, I'm in the mood to eat barbecue; meaning meat. I liked your presentation of the wings; they were a little darker than usually whets my appetite. 8 on appearance. The problem is going to be, for the competitor, to get a tender wing that's not a bite of skin. Literally, compare that bite to a thigh, or a breast. Which is more tender? Which has a better barbecue chicken taste? You can do this.

Back to the hot wings. Lets say perhaps that you were able to fry that wing (get a crispy skin), there's a 2nd problem. Most all wings that I know of you're tasting 99% of the sauce. That sauce doesn't compliment the flavor of the chicken; it over-powers it. You could be eating a fried piece of cardboard and it would all pretty much taste the same. Trust me on this, 4 out of 6 judges will be able to discern this and even with a great sauce you're in 8's, 7's, or worse.

That's what we mean when we say it isn't a sauce contest; it's a meat contest. A great sauce that either over-powers or conflicts with the other flavors will not win, and in the example of whole hog I gave earlier, can take a winner down.

Warthog
04-19-2011, 01:55 PM
Don't blame the judges. I see it over and over again. The judges do this they don't do that. Why are they giving me this score. True some judges are better then others. The same can be stated about the competitors. On the whole everyone has an equal chance of doing well in a competition. Judges are regular people who have taken a class to become certified. Nothing more or nothing less. If wings are not going to give you a reliable score then go with the flow. Use thighs like the rest of the pack.

Sweet Breathe BBQ
04-19-2011, 02:58 PM
If you're refering to my comments, I didn't blame the judges. I simply stated that chicken is chicken and assumptions should not be made because someone turns in wings rather than thighs. As you stated they have taken a class to become certified to judge appearance, taste and tenderness. If they stick to that, it's all good! If everyone should use thighs then perhaps they just need to change the category to chicken thighs. My feeling is if everyone did the the status quo, the sport wouldn't evolve much. New methods, flavors, cookers, breeds innovation. Would get kind of boring if everyone used the same flavors and methods, over and over again, just because it won once. There would be no market for new rubs and sauces etc. Granted when I've done well, I don't go messing with the recipe much until it starts to tip the other way. I understand the reasoning for using thighs. I'm just sayin' if I make a wing or foot or whatever that tastes as good, looks as good and is as tender, it should stand the same chance as winning as a thigh.

Most people invest alot of time and $ into competing just looking to get judged fairly and not assumed I'm a rookie b/c I turned in wings. I was a rookie last year damn it! Now i'm all grown up to a sophomore. LOL

Lake Dogs
04-19-2011, 03:22 PM
Sweet, you're right, and most judges do as you're asking. I would recommend to check the percentage of CBJ's at the competitions that you choose. The higher the percentage of CBJ's, the less likely you'll get willy-nilly stuff.

Sweet Breathe BBQ
04-19-2011, 03:33 PM
I hear ya, I know they do and I appreciate having judges at contests. This was an small incident that I thought was relevant to this discussion. Otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up

Robert
04-22-2011, 10:20 AM
Well, I over-stated the bite-through skin. You're right, and some of it can be *ok*. What if you get 5 or 6 judges who really dont care for skin; bite through or not? Think of it this way: A thigh has what, 5 to 1 meat to skin ratio, if not more? Wing has what: perhaps a 1 to 2 meat to skin ratio, or worse. Remember, it's a meat contest, not a skin contest. I'm one judge who happens to really hate skin. It's *ok* to me on a thigh if really REALLY thin and bite through, it's hardly noticed. But on a wing; its going to be extremely tough to mimic fried (and that was what I was trying to say earlier).

However, dont think there's a preference to thighs. It's not. Just most judges prefer to be judging meat; the more meat (vs. skin) the better, to a degree. The reason thighs tend to score better than breasts is because of tenderness, and to some degree taste because a breast can get bland and dry easily.

If you want to be judged consistently well, go with thighs. Hub is dead on!

Have you ever had a really great cooked breast? One that was flavorful and moist and tender? Believe it ornot, there are some skilled cooks that can do this. I think, since you have voiced your preferences and displayed a bias against skin, that you should be excused from judging chicken. I just don't see how you can be objective when you say skin is *ok* on a thigh if it is thin enough or are looking for a skin to meat ratio. How that can enter into your evaluation of the entry is just beyond me. What about legs?

Robert

Divemaster
04-22-2011, 12:07 PM
I won't go back to wings.

I tried them (wingettes not the mini drum sticks) a couple of times in combination with thighs and got the impression that the judges didn't know what to do with them.

In fact I got one comment card that stated that "the wings didn't help". The score on the card was 9-9-8. My comment back was "I guess they didn't hurt either!"

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Mister Bob
04-22-2011, 12:09 PM
The sauce on those wings and in that pan is certainly not the same sauce that's on that thigh. Were they cooked the same day? While the wings look tasty, the thigh is outstanding. If you had 6 or 9 of those ready to go, I think it's pretty clear you should have turned those in instead.

RangerJ
04-22-2011, 12:37 PM
I'm just wondering what the claw hammer in the picture is used for? Looks a bit rusty....

boogiesnap
04-22-2011, 01:53 PM
EXACT same sauce. the wings were at the comp. the thigh was a practice cook testing side by side with wings.

the hammer is for splitting my smoke stix:thumb: