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Smokin' Hicks
04-05-2011, 11:49 PM
can anyone tell me the rules and what ICBS stands for? any info would do, i heard they have a good rule set

Rookie'48
04-06-2011, 12:06 AM
IBCS is International BBQ Cook's Society (I think) - don't know about Icbs, though :-P.

Q-Dat
04-06-2011, 12:39 AM
So wait. There is an IBCS(International Barbecue Cooks Society) and an IBCA(International Barbecue Cookers Association)?

gmholler
04-06-2011, 08:59 AM
Per Google, I found these definitions for IBCS:

International Committee of the Blue Shield
Incorporated Church Building Society
International Conference of Banking Supervisors
Imperial College of Business Studies in Punjab, India
It Can Be Shown (from mathematics)
Institute of Cognitive and Brain Sciences at the University of California, Berkley
International Cigar Band Society
Inter-Connected Business System

I've never heard of IBCS in conjunction with BBQ. Maybe you mean IBCA (International Barbecue Cookers Association)? You can find info on them at

http://www.ibcabbq.org (http://www.ibcabbq.org/)

Lynn H.

Smokin' Hicks
04-06-2011, 07:52 PM
the reason i ask is, i have heard they tell you exactly how much meat of each category to put in the box and exactly how they want it laid in the box....absolutely no garnish!!
i love the no garnish part, think you should be judged on the meat and not what else is in the box to compliment the meat....the only thing i dont like about them is they are not so big on having 100% CBJ judges they said that is not one of their high priorities...if that is the case then forget about them

thillin
04-06-2011, 08:36 PM
Sounds like you're talking about IBCA. It's the same. If you don't like the judging, don't cook. Just because someone paid to be a certified judge doesn't make them any better to judge BBQ. I'm sure there are alot of good CBJs, and sure there are some bad ones. But people can still judge BBQ well without a certification. I choose by location and payout. When I'm consistant, I place no matter who's judging.

Smokin' Hicks
04-06-2011, 09:06 PM
you know i have heard alot more people agree with me on this than disagree...you are 100% WRONG....if you pay all the money to go cook in these comps the least the organizer could do is have all CBJ judges.....its not about them tasting and giving their "opinion" on your food its about having a certified judge there and that judge knowing the flavor profile, texture profile, and appearance profile....its the only way you can get consistently better at cooking, having that specific flavor profile to aim for...if the judges are not certified then the have absolutely no guide lines to go by except yeah that tastes good or yeah that looks nice....so i couldn't disagree with you more... and yeah you are right i am not that stupid to get into a comp with out at least 90% CBJ so dont worry about it i won't cook any comps that don't have at least that

RangerJ
04-06-2011, 09:24 PM
you know i have heard alot more people agree with me on this than disagree...you are 100% WRONG....if you pay all the money to go cook in these comps the least the organizer could do is have all CBJ judges.....its not about them tasting and giving their "opinion" on your food its about having a certified judge there and that judge knowing the flavor profile, texture profile, and appearance profile....its the only way you can get consistently better at cooking, having that specific flavor profile to aim for...if the judges are not certified then the have absolutely no guide lines to go by except yeah that tastes good or yeah that looks nice....so i couldn't disagree with you more... and yeah you are right i am not that stupid to get into a comp with out at least 90% CBJ so dont worry about it i won't cook any comps that don't have at least that

I've walked in both, I've been shut out in both. The really good teams around here, typically walk no matter what the association or the "qualifications" of the judges.

At the end of the day, good Que is good Que. And flavor profiles..well they are quite different, so I'm not sure how you can shoot for a specific profile as that IS subjective to the taster.

What I will agree with is, its harder to improve with no real feedback and KCBS and some others provide that, IBCA really does not.

Good luck to you.

gmholler
04-06-2011, 11:17 PM
you know i have heard alot more people agree with me on this than disagree...you are 100% WRONG....if you pay all the money to go cook in these comps the least the organizer could do is have all CBJ judges.....its not about them tasting and giving their "opinion" on your food its about having a certified judge there and that judge knowing the flavor profile, texture profile, and appearance profile....its the only way you can get consistently better at cooking, having that specific flavor profile to aim for...if the judges are not certified then the have absolutely no guide lines to go by except yeah that tastes good or yeah that looks nice....so i couldn't disagree with you more... and yeah you are right i am not that stupid to get into a comp with out at least 90% CBJ so dont worry about it i won't cook any comps that don't have at least that

Actually, this brings up something I've wondered about. How is it that having a high CBJ % gives cooks a "warm fuzzy" about a contest? To be a CBJ, all you need do is pay your money & stay conscious for the duration of the class. At the judges' meeting at any contest, you'll find that they're required to go over the standards and guidelines for KCBS judging, so if there's anything you don't remember from the class, chances are it'll be covered in that meeting. So how does that make a CBJ so coveted? I've seen CBJs that are really dedicated and feel they are there to serve the cooks, while I've also seen those that just want to fill their cooler with meat. About the only thing I've seen that ties all of them together is a love of BBQ - be it for the sport/activity or just eating it. But I don't understand why it's said to be such a good thing for a CBJ % to be high - I mean, it's nice and all, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee anything - or does it?

Lynn H.

Rich Parker
04-07-2011, 06:46 AM
Good bbq is good bbq and will always win regardless of the percentage of cbj's.

Jorge
04-07-2011, 10:22 AM
you know i have heard alot more people agree with me on this than disagree...you are 100% WRONG....if you pay all the money to go cook in these comps the least the organizer could do is have all CBJ judges.....its not about them tasting and giving their "opinion" on your food its about having a certified judge there and that judge knowing the flavor profile, texture profile, and appearance profile....its the only way you can get consistently better at cooking, having that specific flavor profile to aim for...if the judges are not certified then the have absolutely no guide lines to go by except yeah that tastes good or yeah that looks nice....so i couldn't disagree with you more... and yeah you are right i am not that stupid to get into a comp with out at least 90% CBJ so dont worry about it i won't cook any comps that don't have at least that

Pretty bold statement, considering you've never done one of the events.

I generally use Ronnie and Michelle Wade as an example when this topic comes up. They can win anywhere, and it's not because of the judges. They are both great cooks, and turn in a consistently good product.

I'm more concerned about your apparent belief that a CBJ should have a particular flavor profile in mind when they sit down to judge. Are you a CBJ?

MoKanMeathead
04-07-2011, 01:47 PM
you know i have heard alot more people agree with me on this than disagree...you are 100% WRONG....if you pay all the money to go cook in these comps the least the organizer could do is have all CBJ judges.....its not about them tasting and giving their "opinion" on your food its about having a certified judge there and that judge knowing the flavor profile, texture profile, and appearance profile....its the only way you can get consistently better at cooking, having that specific flavor profile to aim for...if the judges are not certified then the have absolutely no guide lines to go by except yeah that tastes good or yeah that looks nice....so i couldn't disagree with you more... and yeah you are right i am not that stupid to get into a comp with out at least 90% CBJ so dont worry about it i won't cook any comps that don't have at least that

Not to "pile on" here but I was also wondering about what flavor profile you think a CBJ learns in training? I agree that KCBS can teach what the KCBS thinks is appropriate appearance and tenderness but I don't think they can teach flavor. The KCBS teches that a rib should pull cleanly from the bone, most of the non-CBJ public thinks it should fall from the bone...who's right? I guess that depends on who you are cooking for.

I have cooked IBCA contests and I like the way they judge - I don't like the lack of feedback you get but I like the judging. They don't have so-called CBJs there with their magnifying glasses trying to make sure every bodies BBQ looks the same and lays on their finger just so or pulls apart nicely - they have judges that will give you a good score if they like your product and a bad score of they don't...nothing wrong with that!

I think there are some things the KCBS could learn from the IBCA and some the IBCA could learn from the KCBS.

Jorge
04-07-2011, 01:56 PM
Not to "pile on" here but I was also wondering about what flavor profile you think a CBJ learns in training? I agree that KCBS can teach what the KCBS thinks is appropriate appearance and tenderness but I don't think they can teach flavor. The KCBS teches that a rib should pull cleanly from the bone, most of the non-CBJ public thinks it should fall from the bone...who's right? I guess that depends on who you are cooking for.

I have cooked IBCA contests and I like the way they judge - I don't like the lack of feedback you get but I like the judging. They don't have so-called CBJs there with their magnifying glasses trying to make sure every bodies BBQ looks the same and lays on their finger just so or pulls apart nicely - they have judges that will give you a good score if they like your product and a bad score of they don't...nothing wrong with that!

I think there are some things the KCBS could learn from the IBCA and some the IBCA could learn from the KCBS.

One of the many reasons you will always be..."The Thinker":becky: Great seeing you this weekend!

hcj3rd
04-07-2011, 02:50 PM
I agree that good BBQ wins out most of the time. I cook IBCA and TGCBCA about 10 times a year. It is amazing to me how consistent the top cooking teams hit . You brought up the Wades then you also have the Canterberry's, Razzberry's and Craig Sharry. They are consistently getting a call. So you don't have to have certified judges at a cookoff to pick out good BBQ.

Bigmista
04-07-2011, 03:10 PM
I thought KCBS was the only organization that certifies judges. As far as I know there is no such thing as an IBCA certified judges.

Also there is no "flavor profile" taught to certified judges. You could theoretically turn in the same plate of ribs to two different tables and get 9's on one table and 7's on the next. If fact, all of the food tested in judging classes is generally from the same cook.

I've done back to back contests on the same weekend and have seen a team finish in the bottom quarter one day and finish second the next day with the same turn in. The table you land on is more important than the organization you cook for.

Jorge
04-07-2011, 03:18 PM
I agree that good BBQ wins out most of the time. I cook IBCA and TGCBCA about 10 times a year. It is amazing to me how consistent the top cooking teams hit . You brought up the Wades then you also have the Canterberry's, Razzberry's and Craig Sharry. They are consistently getting a call. So you don't have to have certified judges at a cookoff to pick out good BBQ.

Agreed. I use the Wades as an example because the cook more KCBS, IBCA, and TGCBCA events than any other team I know of and have had more success in the various organizations in recent years than anybody else I'm aware of. Good BBQ wins.

Alexa RnQ
04-07-2011, 03:25 PM
They don't have so-called CBJs there with their magnifying glasses trying to make sure every bodies BBQ looks the same and lays on their finger just so or pulls apart nicely - they have judges that will give you a good score if they like your product and a bad score of they don't...nothing wrong with that!
There is, perhaps, nothing wrong with that when you live and compete in an area with a well-established tradition of such contests, with a pool of potential judges familiar with its format and standards, such as they may be.

When this model is applied outside such an area, however, it doesn't translate quite as well. Judges drawn from random members of the public might just as easily trash fine entries because they aren't steam-table-fall-off-the-bone ribs like they eat at Crapplebee's, or because they prefer a raspberry-wasabi glaze, or whatever.

Part of the reason that KCBS has taught the judging standards that you cite is to try to objectify the process as much as possible -- to help remove personal bias, and make the results be more about a well-cooked product than, say, whether it reminds a judge of Grandpa's food.

To give perspective, we've won our fair share of IBCA contests -- I believe five GCs and 1 RGC out of eleven shows in the past three years. That would seem to give some credence to the idea that good food wins regardless of the sanctioning body.

But just because good food mostly does well, doesn't mean that's what's best for the cook. In those areas where this system works well, travel distances are short and the cook's investment is minimal, hallelujah -- that's the way it was meant to be.

But in areas where this format is new, applied mostly by people who don't want to go to the trouble of signing up CBJs, populated primarily by KCBS cooks who have to drop a thousand bucks to show up and then have their entries tanked by someone who hasn't even spent a couple of hours learning about a standard, it doesn't play as well. I've heard it said more than once, "If I wanted to know what somebody who eats McRibs thinks about my stone-cold food, I can set up for free in the parking lot at McDonald's!"

Any sanctioning body is going to provide good and bad experiences. We've cooked under some of the best and worst head judges IBCA offers. Quibbling over whether one sanctioning body is "better" isn't relevant if it isn't offering an experience consonant with a particular team's goals.

thillin
04-07-2011, 03:41 PM
... and yeah you are right i am not that stupid to get into a comp with out at least 90% CBJ so dont worry about it i won't cook any comps that don't have at least that

Then call me stupid as I'm paying alot lower enrtry fees and cashing checks.

PORQY
04-07-2011, 04:08 PM
...I think there are some things the KCBS could learn from the IBCA and some the IBCA could learn from the KCBS.

Nicely said! Totally agree.

Smokin' Hicks
04-07-2011, 07:21 PM
I have been the executive chef of a high end country club for about 10 years now so with that being said i have done many cooking comps besides BBQ comps, at these comps you are judged by trained and certified executive chefs or master chefs the reason being is they know what they are looking at and how it is suppose to be...i have not taken the CBJ class and obviously am under the wrong understanding about CBJ judging....i thought the judges were taught what to look for and how the food should be.....that is the only way i think a cook can improve if the judging is consistent in these areas...."If I wanted to know what somebody who eats McRibs thinks about my stone-cold food, I can set up for free in the parking lot at McDonald's!" this is exactly how i feel about the whole thing.....if i am gonna spend as much money as it takes to do these comps then i expect to be judged by a trained judge not a radio DJ from down the block....it just only seems logical to me to think this way cause these are how all the other "professional" cooking comps are that i have done.....if table #1 rates you 7 on appearance and table #2 gives you 9 on appearance how are you suppose to know which is accurate to make tweaks on for the next comp? just seems like they owe that much to the cooks to standardize the judging process to eliminate personal opinion .....i dont care what you think about my BBQ i just wanna know how it compare to the guidelines set forth by the KCBS...or maybe these guidelines that i am dreaming of dont exist.....basically if the judges are not taught how to judge and what to look for that it is a real crap shoot on any sort of consistency or chance of winning.....so are these comps a giant crap shoot to begin with and i am just looking at it all the wrong way? Seems like alot of money to spend to travel around and enter these things when its a c rap shoot if you will win or not, i'd rather just hit the blackjack table

Rich Parker
04-07-2011, 07:30 PM
I have been the executive chef of a high end country club for about 10 years now so with that being said i have done many cooking comps besides BBQ comps, at these comps you are judged by trained and certified executive chefs or master chefs the reason being is they know what they are looking at and how it is suppose to be...i have not taken the CBJ class and obviously am under the wrong understanding about CBJ judging....i thought the judges were taught what to look for and how the food should be.....that is the only way i think a cook can improve if the judging is consistent in these areas...."If I wanted to know what somebody who eats McRibs thinks about my stone-cold food, I can set up for free in the parking lot at McDonald's!" this is exactly how i feel about the whole thing.....if i am gonna spend as much money as it takes to do these comps then i expect to be judged by a trained judge not a radio DJ from down the block....it just only seems logical to me to think this way cause these are how all the other "professional" cooking comps are that i have done.....if table #1 rates you 7 on appearance and table #2 gives you 9 on appearance how are you suppose to know which is accurate to make tweaks on for the next comp? just seems like they owe that much to the cooks to standardize the judging process to eliminate personal opinion .....i dont care what you think about my BBQ i just wanna know how it compare to the guidelines set forth by the KCBS...or maybe these guidelines that i am dreaming of dont exist.....basically if the judges are not taught how to judge and what to look for that it is a real crap shoot on any sort of consistency or chance of winning.....so are these comps a giant crap shoot to begin with and i am just looking at it all the wrong way? Seems like alot of money to spend to travel around and enter these things when its a c rap shoot if you will win or not, i'd rather just hit the blackjack table

I don't understand why you think someone needs to be trained to judge what is good bbq? I can understand if we were doing math and there is only one answer to the problem, but we are talking about bbq. It is very different from town to town, state to state, and country to country and that is why i love it.

Smokin' Hicks
04-07-2011, 07:56 PM
the reason i think that is because what you think is good and what i think is good can be totally different ideas, which is OK i am not arguing that point...what i am trying to figure out is, like any other type of comp i have ever done, how can you improve on your food and technique if every judge at every comp has their own opinion on qwhat good BBQ is.....at other comps, other than BBQ, the group of chef's that is judging you may all have their own opinions on how they would change your plate up or tweak the flavor profile of your food and that is what makes them a unique and good chef BUT they dont use those guide lines when the judge for one reason...CONSISTENCY.....with out that it is very hard to judge where you need to make changes in your food or cooking technique...a small dice is a small dice a chiffanade cut is a chiffanade cut a juliene is a juliene by definintion there are standards set for these and what they are suppose to look like and that is how you are judged.....now one chef may like his small dice to be a little bit bigger AT HIS PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT THAT IS OK...but not at a comp...it has to be consistant across the board so cooks can improve and learn.....if i make lobster thermodore there is a certain method on how to prepare that and how it should look and taste, if it does not look that way on turn in then you are scored low and told why, so you can IMPROVE....understand where i am coming from?

Mrs. McFrankenboo
04-07-2011, 09:11 PM
you know i have heard alot more people agree with me on this than disagree...you are 100% WRONG....if you pay all the money to go cook in these comps the least the organizer could do is have all CBJ judges.....its not about them tasting and giving their "opinion" on your food its about having a certified judge there and that judge knowing the flavor profile, texture profile, and appearance profile....its the only way you can get consistently better at cooking, having that specific flavor profile to aim for...if the judges are not certified then the have absolutely no guide lines to go by except yeah that tastes good or yeah that looks nice....so i couldn't disagree with you more... and yeah you are right i am not that stupid to get into a comp with out at least 90% CBJ so dont worry about it i won't cook any comps that don't have at least that

Yikes, first, one person responded saying something about judges and you tell them they are 100 percent wrong...weren't you the one that didn't have the name of it right and hadn't cooked one of their contests before? Bigmista was correct, I don't believe they do not offer judging classes for this sanctioning body.

I have competed in both IBCA and KCBS competitions. My main issue with IBCA is that you don't know how you faired in the competition beyond a certain point and you get no feedback on how well you did in terms of the judges scoring. I have also judged for both KCBS and IBCA and I can personally tell you that I was a more experienced judge than some of the CBJs and I am NOT a CBJ. We have competed for the last few years and have gotten comments from CBJs like "dry but mushy pork" and "tough but overcooked ribs". I have also overheard CBJs say things like "I scored them down because their food wasn't as good as what I would have cooked at home" and I've tasted the que of those particular judges and it's food that you would spit out. That being said, sometimes CBJs are not the all knowing of BBQ and I wouldn't NOT do a competition because they didn't require CBJs. A lot of places certify judges the night before a competition and have those new "students" judge the next day even though they may not truly understand the intricacies of judging bbq. Bottom line, if you've never judged or competed and someone is trying to give you some insight, don't tell them they are 100 percent wrong. Also, even if there is 100 percent CBJs, you can still lose all your money if your food isn't good.

I see your other response now, so I don't want my response to sound harsh but consistency can be an issue in BBQ regardless of whether or not they are certified judges. Judging in different in AZ (where we currently live), CA, NM, CO, UT, NV, TN and Mexico, which are all states we've competed in. We're about to move to the Midwest and we expect slightly different judging there as well. Not based on whether or not they are certified, but based on the likes of people in that region.

worthsmokin
04-07-2011, 09:19 PM
Everybody's pallet is different. If you and I were sitting at the same table you may not like the flavor profile that I like. It is all subjective. IMO if it looks good in the judges mind it "should" taste good. People think in pictures. Now that don't mean it will taste good.

Competition is a challenge and from your post about NKC it doesn't seem to me like you are up to it. You can't go and blame the judges for bad scores at your first comp. There are many GC competitors that do well at many comps week in week out, but some they don't. They know what they have done wrong and fix the problem.

We started competing last year and did 8. 5 of those KCBS we didn't get a call until our 3rd comp in KCBS. You will not find a post that I blamed the judges on other forums. I take pictures, post, and ask for CC and try to improve not blame others.

Smokin' Hicks
04-07-2011, 09:22 PM
and i have competed in KCBS events so i kinda know a little something not much but a little....and if you read what i said he was wrong on you would understand what i am saying....i wasnt saying he was wrong on any advice he was giving me....if you pay all the money to go cook in these comps the least the organizer could do is have all CBJ judges....but evidently by beef is with the KCBS and the lack of standardizing they have for judging these comps...and yeah i did have the name right we were talking about two different governing bodies...i just dont understand how you can not be for stringent standardizing of the rules for judging BBQ in the KCBS.....

Smokin' Hicks
04-07-2011, 09:26 PM
brother it is not about blaming others at all....JUST LISTEN.....i am definitely up for comps my friend, you have done 8 i have done 27 so i think i am up for it, but thanks for the advice.....i am just trying to understand and find any sort of pattern in the judging so you know what to shoot for....i feel like i am being crucified for asking a perfectly logical question.....starting to wonder how much logic there really is in all this anyway

worthsmokin
04-07-2011, 09:34 PM
Well I am only going by your thread about NKC. Did you mean 1st one this year then? Well when you find out the pattern let all of us know.

Ford
04-07-2011, 09:40 PM
First the FBA certifies judges and I believe MBN does as well.

Second it's obvious that some folks posting to this thread are not CBJ's. I've actuall ycooked the meat for a cbj class. Simple bland spicing. Some instructors actualy specify the rub and sauce. No lb of sugar per slab of ribs. There's no effort to instruct on taste and tenderness is th bite test for ribs and the elastic pull test for brisket.

Third some cbj's are excellentjudges and are serious, others just want to take a cooler home. I don't worry about how many cbj's are there I just pray they didn't just have a class and there are 30 new cbj's withreally no concept of whatjudging is.

Finall they don't even have a book to show examples of excellent boxes vs poor effort.

Mrs. McFrankenboo
04-07-2011, 09:41 PM
You really can't have standardized judging across the board because everyone does have a different palate and their idea of good BBQ is different than others. Kansas City judges may think BBQ is something different than Texas. I'm from New England originally and can tell you that the crap they make out here in Arizona is definitely NOT New England clam chowder. And the stuff they make in St. Louis is definitely NOT authentic Mexican food. You can have it standardized to a point, but it's hard to have everyone like the same food across the board and judge it accordingly when there are so many people being certified each year.