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jrbBBQ
03-13-2011, 08:53 PM
This is a picture of a practice box i let one of the guys on my team put together. I know it's bad, but I'm gonna show him this thread later to help explain what he did wrong. I cooked the meat and the flavor was great and the texture was really good as well. If you could score it with a little explanation that'd be of some help (some of the problems are obvious). Like I said I'm gonna use this as a learning tool. thankshttp://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee510/jrbBBQ/DSCF01343.jpg

jrbBBQ
03-13-2011, 09:01 PM
I was gonna take a picture of a box I put together, but I had about 10 people in my house and by the time I got back to the brisket all the good pieces were gone. Same thing happen with my chicken I had 10 thighs I to pick from to make a box, and 6 of the pieces disappeared right after I took them off. First thing I learned, never have a practice with a bunch of hungry people around. I guess I should have told everyone what was going on. Oh well, everyone got fed.

Jacked UP BBQ
03-13-2011, 09:25 PM
I am going to say this as nicely as possible. That box might get 4's in appearance. The meat is sliced all over the place and uneven. The burntends are not uniform at all. Crack in the front slice. Backs slices meat side up front slices fat side up. Smudges all over the meat. I bet that brisket from the looks of it could have made a really nice box. Good Luck. You asked I gave.

Red Valley BBQ
03-13-2011, 09:44 PM
I'll add that the lid is a mess. Also it just looks like everything including the parsley was just put in the box, as if you had less than a minute to get it to the judges and threw something together just to get a turn in. Definitely a 4, 5 at best.

jrbBBQ
03-13-2011, 09:57 PM
I gave him 10 minutes. When I saw it, I laughed, then it hit me that he was one of a couple people that's gonna be able to go with me to a few comps. I know I'll be pushing it on time to do it all myself. I've done a couple practice "putting greens" myself. I think that I'll just have to do those the night before and put them back in the cooler.

Anchors Smokeshop
03-13-2011, 10:00 PM
That box is a hot mess!

Smokedelic
03-13-2011, 11:03 PM
You might explain to him that appearance is one of the scoring criteria.:thumb:

4 smokin butts
03-13-2011, 11:07 PM
that needs to be explained to the judges also,i think judges should take there class,cook with a team ,then they can judge a contest

bbq lover
03-13-2011, 11:09 PM
the back slices are better looking then the front lol only 5 uneven burt ends messy top of the box and needs more green stuff it would get a 5 max

wormdrink67
03-14-2011, 12:16 AM
Of all that one could critique with this box, I'd have to say the overwhelming lack of uniformity is what seals its fate. Most of the other posts have touched on a little of everything. As a CBJ, I can handle less than perfect slices, a little smudge on the lid, etc....but all slices/burnt ends/garnish must be uniform for the box to strike me in a positive fashion. Reason for this is, if it's uniform, then I'm very well aware of the time and effort you spent making it that way.

Q-Dat
03-14-2011, 12:52 AM
Find some pictures of well made brisket boxes and show them to him. That should do the explaining for you.

Slamdunkpro
03-14-2011, 12:55 AM
You're not supposed to judge the lid
You're not supposed to judge the garnish

It's a meat contest

The brisket looks dry
Clean up all the crumbs
The chunks look tossed in

5, maybe a 6 in person. It's just,,,,there. It doesn't make me want to dive in.

smalls65
03-14-2011, 06:09 AM
I am going to say this as nicely as possible. That box might get 4's in appearance. The meat is sliced all over the place and uneven. The burntends are not uniform at all. Crack in the front slice. Backs slices meat side up front slices fat side up. Smudges all over the meat. I bet that brisket from the looks of it could have made a really nice box. Good Luck. You asked I gave.

I have to agree with this post...It honestly just doesnt look like you put a lot of effort into making this box...Not tyring to bash you but I just wouldn't want you to go to a comp and turn that in...Appearance does help to WIN contest, and that would have you in the lower part of the scoresheet at the end if the day!!! I suggest you go to the "Pickled pig Forum"... There are some great threads on turnin boxes for Pork, Brisket , and Chicken that you can study and learn from....Look for the threads "Award Winning Comp Brisket, Award Winning Comp Pork, and Award winning comp Chicken" It'll take you from cooking to presentation!!! By all means don't give up, but keep practicing...and take pride in how your box looks!!! :thumb:

NRA4Life
03-14-2011, 08:31 AM
Lots of good comments and suggestions. You might want to assemble the box yourself after looking at that mess. You've spend a lot of time and money prepping, trimming, and cooking the brisket...you don't want it to look like a box of $hit in the last 10 minutes (I'm not saying that is tasted bad or texture was bad, just the appearance).

wormdrink67
03-14-2011, 08:43 AM
You're not supposed to judge the lid
You're not supposed to judge the garnish

It's a meat contest


I'm aware of what kind of contest it is....I've done quite a few. Anyone that takes a box to a KCBS judging table and expects not be judged on garnish or the neatness of their box is foolish. Sight before taste, and as long as it's done that way, cbj's will judge on garnish, lid smudges, putting greens or leaf lettuce, etc. Whether or not they mean to judge on those things is beside the point, it just happens.

G$
03-14-2011, 08:52 AM
Of all that one could critique with this box, I'd have to say the overwhelming lack of uniformity is what seals its fate. Most of the other posts have touched on a little of everything. As a CBJ, I can handle less than perfect slices, a little smudge on the lid, etc....but all slices/burnt ends/garnish must be uniform for the box to strike me in a positive fashion. Reason for this is, if it's uniform, then I'm very well aware of the time and effort you spent making it that way.

Is uniformity one of the criteria discussed in judging class when the instructor teaches the students onwhat to judge for appearance?

Contracted Cookers
03-14-2011, 08:54 AM
You eat with your eyes first. it is not really BLIND judgeing . I think you have all the right pieces to make a nice box.

NRA4Life
03-14-2011, 09:15 AM
Is uniformity one of the criteria discussed in judging class when the instructor teaches the students onwhat to judge for appearance?

I don't recall uniformity as being a specific judgement criteria, but when judging the appearance of the meat in the box, anything that detracts from the overall presentation could be justification for lower scores. In fact, I don't believe there were any specific instructions in the CBJ class of how a judge should or shouldn't score anything (other than DQ), that is why scores are all over the place from judge to judge.

sitnfat
03-14-2011, 10:48 AM
I use slices from the same flat I generally put enough in that the space between the edge of the meat and the edge of the box is even all the way around. I don't do burnt ends they just don't look like something I would eat and I am terrible at making them. I have turned in pulled withthe slices and done well also hope that helps

wormdrink67
03-14-2011, 10:59 AM
Is uniformity one of the criteria discussed in judging class when the instructor teaches the students onwhat to judge for appearance?

They don't teach you how to judge, they teach how to follow the procedures of kcbs judging. Uniform boxes are crucial. My team has consistently shown better scores (overall) with boxes that are uniform. Period.

Slamdunkpro
03-14-2011, 12:38 PM
I'm aware of what kind of contest it is....I've done quite a few. Anyone that takes a box to a KCBS judging table and expects not be judged on garnish or the neatness of their box is foolish. Sight before taste, and as long as it's done that way, cbj's will judge on garnish, lid smudges, putting greens or leaf lettuce, etc. Whether or not they mean to judge on those things is beside the point, it just happens.

I don't want to hijack this thread or start another P'ing contest but do you really add/subtract points based on the type of garnish?

wormdrink67
03-14-2011, 01:13 PM
I don't want to hijack this thread or start another P'ing contest but do you really add/subtract points based on the type of garnish?

Consciously, NO, but sub-consciously I think every judge has a presentation factor built into their scoring criteria. It's human nature. Otherwise, "putting green" boxes wouldn't be so highly preferred. Teams get better scores with them, the numbers prove it.

Page 10 of the CBJ certification packet: "Each judge will first score all the samples for appearance."

Type of garnish=type of appearance.

Bentley
03-14-2011, 01:35 PM
...with a little explanation that'd be of some help (some of the problems are obvious). http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee510/jrbBBQ/DSCF01343.jpg

I am sure some of the comments will be obvious, but will include them.

The slices are not uniform, and as I try and judge the meat, it is a distraction.

I do not think his placement of the burnt ends highlighted them well. You might suggest he think of placing all in front or back...or make your slices smaller and then run on each side. Uniformity here will will help.

If you are going to garnish, fill the box. Let the meat rest on it so it accentuates it, not a small amount that peaks out and cuts off in certain places.

jrbBBQ
03-14-2011, 02:30 PM
I've been to the pickled pig forum (it's great) but I was just looking for someone else on my team to take some responsability for some things. I'm figuring out that there is gonna be a 2 hour window of madness on Saturday afternoons during turn-in. I think its hard for some people to have a sense of pride if they don't have anything invested in it. BTW.. he read this thread this morning, he doesn't wanna play anymore, he said he'd come visit.

Bentley
03-14-2011, 05:58 PM
That's a shame, he would have gotten the hang of it!

PorkQPine
03-14-2011, 07:26 PM
Hope the runner to the turn in table didn't break his leg when he fell.

bmanMA
03-14-2011, 10:08 PM
Youch, dude.

jrbBBQ
03-15-2011, 02:47 AM
I just noticed a really funny thing in this picture... in the upper left hand corner.. you can see a roll of paper towels next to the box. How hard would it have been to grab one and wipe the box off. Oh well.. first comp is coming up in a couple weeks and I'll see I end up doing without much help. I notice that some people go on thier own, but I'm assuming they are experienced. I'm gonna have a good time no matter what, that's what its all about anyway. BTW someone said it looked dry in an earlier post.. I agree that it looked that way in the picture, but I assure you it was not. I asked my buddy why he put the tore piece up front and he said he wanted to show how tender it was :doh:

bmanMA
03-15-2011, 05:23 AM
does this buddy of yours help with other things (in a useful way)? He doesnt have to do the boxes necessarily... I only say this because going alone is not easy, and not nearly as much fun. Can he cook? Can he mule water and do the setup/teardown of the site? Just keep the boy away from the boxes... :razz:

smalls65
03-15-2011, 06:24 AM
I just noticed a really funny thing in this picture... in the upper left hand corner.. you can see a roll of paper towels next to the box. How hard would it have been to grab one and wipe the box off. Oh well.. first comp is coming up in a couple weeks and I'll see I end up doing without much help. I notice that some people go on thier own, but I'm assuming they are experienced. I'm gonna have a good time no matter what, that's what its all about anyway. BTW someone said it looked dry in an earlier post.. I agree that it looked that way in the picture, but I assure you it was not. I asked my buddy why he put the tore piece up front and he said he wanted to show how tender it was :doh:

If your goal is to go at it alone...then by all means...go ahead and do it...If you could find someone to help you it would be better for you..,Just stay very organized if you do go at it alone..it will help you come turn in time!!! :thumb:

Lake Dogs
03-15-2011, 06:45 AM
> the overwhelming lack of uniformity is what seals its fate.

Good summary. Uneven thickness of slices, and some are put fatcap up, others
fatcap down. Then they're not arranged evenly whatsoever. Smudges everywhere,
including on the top of the box, and honestly you haven't even transported it to the
judging tent year (transportation tends to rough things up a tad). Burnt Ends put
in there hap hazard and are uneven sizes, etc. There are meat flakes in the box.
Even the garnish hurts in this case because it's hap hazard. 5 if I'm feeling generous.
Honestly, it's not appetizing. If this were a restaurant it's obvious that a rookie
is working the back and appears to have been VERY rushed. Remember, it's a
competition, a cooking competition, where you have 1 and only 1 chance at a first
impression. Make it count. Look at cooking shows if you have to and see plate
presentation. Not that they're working on barbecue, but you get an idea of the
attention to detail.

Assuming the meat was dead on perfect in every way, the box itself probably took
you from 1st place to 5th or 6th or worse (depending on the size of the comp).

I suggest getting a lot of box pics together and discuss the merits of each with
these guys. Get pics of good boxes and bad boxes. Heck, get 8 or 10 and set
them side by side, then you be the judge. Look at what's appetizing and what isn't.
Dont include yours in the mix. Look completely objectively. You'll come away with
an idea of what you want.

Scottie
03-15-2011, 08:19 AM
I think you hit the nail in the head... you allowed 10 minutes to box... I cook a few contests over a year. I can do everything during a comp blindfolded. Especially boxing. I start my brisket at 1:15 for a 1:30 turn in. I allow myself 17 minutes, because I use until 1:35... I think you might allow morevthan 10 minutes and clean up everything in the box luck you will do much better. Tell your friend to come out. This is reality and a bunch of big money in contest cooking. Teams just can't be lazy and not watch the finer details. I know I do not. Probably why its painful for me to get a 7. I do notbturn in 7:d, but that's why it's 'judged'and not given.

Good luck. Get more practice. Slice the entire brisket when it's hot. Good practice. Clean knife after every slice. Clean your cutting board and get those crumbs and pieces off. Be anal.

Good luck!

LongTong
03-15-2011, 10:23 AM
Nice save if you dropped it on the way to the judges tent...

AZScott
03-15-2011, 11:30 AM
That's too bad your friend doesn't want to do it anymore. I'd ask him if he wouldn't mind coming out and just giving you a hand and being there to provide support. Just having someone there to get you a paper towel, fresh knife, spray bottle, etc is a huge help.