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Smokin' Joe
03-13-2011, 02:05 PM
Below is my chicken box from the NKC competition yesterday. I'm looking for some feedback on it please. I will post the scores it actually received later. I did add some parsley after the picture was taken to cover the skin on the lower part of the lower right thigh. Thanks for the help. Be honest I can handle it:heh:

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm67/joebellbucket/3-13-2011043.jpg?t=1300042529

Dale P
03-13-2011, 02:47 PM
solid 8 @ least and with some help with the parsley a 9

landarc
03-13-2011, 02:58 PM
The picture is a little small for my old eyes, but, that sure looks terrific, very even, nicely shaped and consistent, good color, nicely done.

smalls65
03-13-2011, 04:50 PM
solid 8 @ least and with some help with the parsley a 9

Ditto what he just said!!! :thumb:

GQue
03-13-2011, 04:52 PM
Solid 8 from me too. If it did have the parsley cover the bones as you said you did I would give it a 9.

BigBrad
03-13-2011, 04:55 PM
I would say 8 minimum.

wormdrink67
03-13-2011, 05:00 PM
9 on appearance, hands down. (CBJ #60558)

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
03-13-2011, 05:05 PM
looks tastey to me..I dont know how it could look better (15 second look).

9

Sal

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
03-13-2011, 05:07 PM
looks tastey to me..I dont know how it could look better (15 second look).

9

Sal


any thing else and the judges need re-trained!!! it looks great and I would want to eat a piece!!!

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
03-13-2011, 05:09 PM
Solid 8 from me too. If it did have the parsley cover the bones as you said you did I would give it a 9.

are judges looking at parsley???? if so..they need re-trained..

I am waiting for the blast.....(garnish is not a judging criteria)!!!!

Bentley
03-13-2011, 05:17 PM
An 8. Meat looks very good.

luckyduk
03-13-2011, 05:32 PM
like said above 8 or 9 with added parsley

let me guess you got some odd scores also?

Smokin' Joe
03-13-2011, 05:37 PM
like said above 8 or 9 with added parsley

let me guess you got some odd scores also?

Yep, just wanted to be sure I wasn't losing track of what good appearance looked like:becky: Sounds like I'm still on the right track:thumb:

Ron_L
03-13-2011, 05:38 PM
The only things I can pick on is the center thigh in the front row. It has some gaps in the sauce right in front that caught my eye, and the bone ticking out a little on the front right thigh. But, I really don't think either of those would be enough to give it an 8. I'd give it a 9.

For those that said 8 without a reason, can you please explain? I've seen boxes that looked worse than that get a perfect 180!

Bbq Bubba
03-13-2011, 06:30 PM
Appearance is overrated.

9 :thumb:

mobow
03-13-2011, 06:32 PM
looks good to me. bottom bone sticking out might cost a point. but i'd give it a nine. keith

Just Pulin' Pork
03-13-2011, 06:39 PM
Yep, just wanted to be sure I wasn't losing track of what good appearance looked like:becky: Sounds like I'm still on the right track:thumb:


Joe you are not loosing your mind those looks awesome. Take the scores you got with a grain of salt from this contest. Don't get me wrong I like cooking this contest but I know that getting 100% certified judges for this contest is the last thing on there mind. Its all about politics and getting the folks from the Rotary club and the folks from NKC on board to judge! Great seeing and look forward to seeing you guys at P-Hill!

Jon

ClayHill
03-13-2011, 06:56 PM
are judges looking at parsley???? if so..they need re-trained..

I am waiting for the blast.....(garnish is not a judging criteria)!!!!

You know I agree with you, but as a husband and wife team, my wife is in charge and gets all credit for appearance scores(which usually rock btw), you know you trained her Sal, in efficient parsley bunching, your little tip sped up the process 5 fold

So for me and my situation, judges better look at the freakin parsley:becky:

Rich Parker
03-13-2011, 07:16 PM
That little nub sticking out on the bottom right thigh really caught my eye but if you covered that up with parsley that has to be an easy 9 in my book.

smokeyw
03-13-2011, 07:44 PM
The picture is not as clear and detailed as I wish it was. I would have to say at least an 8 and possibly a nine if I could see it a little better.

BBQ_Mayor
03-13-2011, 07:44 PM
At least an 8, probably 9 with a little parsley added.

JD McGee
03-13-2011, 07:48 PM
Great color and uniformity...solid 8 possibly a 9 from here...I rate the meat...not the garnish. :becky:

jbrink01
03-13-2011, 08:01 PM
8 / 9.

Coz
03-13-2011, 08:19 PM
Joe the box looks great to me .With touch up 9s.

monty3777
03-13-2011, 09:26 PM
easy 9

Jacked UP BBQ
03-13-2011, 09:26 PM
9 no doubt. Looks AWESOME

RobKC
03-13-2011, 09:31 PM
8 or 9

Smokin' Joe
03-13-2011, 09:55 PM
Thanks all, I was thinking 8 or 9 and wanted to be sure I wasnt missing something. As a whole it looks like the scores were consistently low at NKC this weekend so I chalked it up to that, but I had a pic so I thought I would share and ask. The judges scored it
988766
Strange enough the judge who gave it a 9 in appearance gave it a 4 in taste:crazy::laugh:

Had a great time either way :thumb:I love this game!

musicmanryann
03-13-2011, 10:06 PM
Looks awesome Joe. I can't remember what you said and you haven't posted your scores, so I am just assuming this is on topic, but I talked to a lot of people after awards who were just shaking their heads, one guy was venting so much and frustrated he was almost in tears. A few people I talked to have cooked the contest several years and say NKC is just that way. Hell, they were giving away 4's and 5's at the Kids Q :tsk:.

4 smokin butts
03-13-2011, 10:08 PM
chicken looks nice,our ribs hit your chicken table.....6 on apperence???just wondering how many cbj s realy there........all in all we had a great time

musicmanryann
03-13-2011, 10:10 PM
Oops, you posted before I could. Looks like I was on topic. Got my first of a couple of 6's on appearance this weekend as well.

I love this sport too!:thumb::wacko:

Smokin' Joe
03-13-2011, 10:14 PM
Hell, they were giving away 4's and 5's at the Kids Q :tsk:.

Ouch thats rough:doh:

KC_Bobby
03-13-2011, 10:31 PM
Joe, at least the weather was nice. Snowing here now.

Swine Assassins
03-13-2011, 10:48 PM
Joe the chicken is 9's all the way. Looks crazy good I would love to eat it right now. I think someone dropped our pork box because we got a couple of 6's and 7's in presentation. Wish I had a picture to post but I was to busy giving my kids money for the carnival to remember to grab the camera and take a picture. We had a great weekend just wish the judging would have been a little more consistent.

musicmanryann
03-13-2011, 10:50 PM
Nice to see you've stopped lurking Scott. :wink: Great job this weekend!

Swine Assassins
03-13-2011, 10:54 PM
Thanks. Great job to you as well. Lurker? The truth hurts but I have been called worse LOL. I have time to post the next two weeks because I won't be tending to my wife's needs since she is one the road.

HarleyEarl
03-14-2011, 05:50 AM
Thanks all, I was thinking 8 or 9 and wanted to be sure I wasnt missing something. As a whole it looks like the scores were consistently low at NKC this weekend so I chalked it up to that, but I had a pic so I thought I would share and ask. The judges scored it
988766
Strange enough the judge who gave it a 9 in appearance gave it a 4 in taste:crazy::laugh:

Had a great time either way :thumb:I love this game!

Ditto on having a great time at the contest and meeting all the Brethren.

And to Paul, WOW! With the teams that were at this contest and winning two categories and GC - Heck of a feat.

The scores/judges, however, were to say the least inconsistent. I had scores bouncing from 6's to 9's all across the board. From what I can see, there was no consistency among the judges and I have a hard time believing they ended up with 80% CBJ. Such be life at NKC...No whining over spilled BBQ sauce.

Hope to see y'all in P-Hill in a couple weeks.

mobow
03-14-2011, 07:51 AM
Giving 4's and 5's at a kids Q is unacceptable. keith

Lake Dogs
03-14-2011, 07:56 AM
Thanks all, I was thinking 8 or 9 and wanted to be sure I wasnt missing something. As a whole it looks like the scores were consistently low at NKC this weekend so I chalked it up to that, but I had a pic so I thought I would share and ask. The judges scored it
988766
Strange enough the judge who gave it a 9 in appearance gave it a 4 in taste:crazy::laugh:

Had a great time either way :thumb:I love this game!


KCBS, right? I must admit, this one one of my pet peeves. The 9-6 range
on that score... UGH. Other sanctioning bodies put measure in place so
that this is reduced or eliminated altogether. To me it was a solid 8 and
possibly a 9 (pic was a little small). Now, we all know what you make up
and what comes across the table can be different (box closed, transportation, etc.),
but the scores should still be certainly within 3 numbers if not across 2
numbers. I sure wish there was enforcement or something in place to
keep this from happening. Meaning, either the 7's and 6's folks were correct,
or the 8's and 9 folks were correct, but in this case they all cannot
be correct.

It's a wonderfully fun game, for certain. However, after putting in the time
and the money and the effort it always ticks me off to get a wild range of
scores, particularly in presentation/appearance (which is much less
subjective than the other categories and not subject to differences among
different pieces of meat). I always come away asking myself : Why
compete at a professional level if the judging isn't likewise, at a professional level?

I'm really glad you enjoyed the competition.

Contracted Cookers
03-14-2011, 09:31 AM
great looking box

The Anchorman
03-14-2011, 09:52 AM
8 from me! cause you know it's not perfect or you would not asked.
But Looks Awesome, wish I could do a box like that.

Alexa RnQ
03-14-2011, 10:42 AM
Absolutely that is a solid 8 or possibly 9. From the scores it appears that three of the judges were looking at a different box entirely. :roll:

carlyle
03-14-2011, 10:50 AM
Hi Joe-

Took a while to respond cause I was cleaning the smudge off the monitor from trying to grab a thigh right through the screen.

Looks like 9 to me.

Am troubled by the inconsistency. We don't know if the rep noticed and talked to the judges that were out of sync with the rest. Even if they did, the damage was already done on that entry.

And a 4 for taste? Was there a comment card to explain that? Sure should have been
some kind of explanation from that judge for that low of a score.

I would want to know from the reps who the judges were that were not consistent with the rest of the table. So I could make sure they would not return again. But that would not have helped for the present contest.

You have a proven track record for quality - don't feel like you are losing your touch.

And what the heck are all these comments about parsley? Really???
Come on, Brethren. It's the meat, not the garnish! Sheesch.

I am so tempted to say something about the quality of judging closer to home, but that would not be fair, would it.

Best of luck as you are on the trail again.

Smokin' Joe
03-14-2011, 11:00 AM
Thanks for the comments everyone! It seems that this is just one of those issues that may just be a part of our game, not sure how to change it (i'd love to hear ideas) and like somone said no point crying over spilled sauce!

The weather was great, worked out the new trailer, shook the dust off, saw some great friends, and had a great time. Chalk this one up to experience and get 'em next time:-D

Congrats to Paul and Matt on GC and RGC!

Smokin' Joe
03-14-2011, 11:03 AM
And a 4 for taste? Was there a comment card to explain that? Sure should have been
some kind of explanation from that judge for that low of a score.

I am so tempted to say something about the quality of judging closer to home, but that would not be fair, would it.

Best of luck as you are on the trail again.

Thanks Lyle! No comment card on the 4, kinda dissapointed in that:confused:

Agreed, I like the 100% CBJ contests you guys put on:thumb:

Bentley
03-14-2011, 12:16 PM
That is just a scratch your head score from 3 of the judges...I guess in a stretch I could see a 7, but to me the box leaned towards a 9 and not a 7. The two 6's, well, if they consider the box average, I would love to see their interpretation of an 8.

So, how do we make CBJ judging more consistant without making judges clones?

Smokin' Joe
03-14-2011, 02:12 PM
Good question Bentley...It does appear from some other comments that this particular contest may have an issue due to lack of CBJ's and the organizer not putting an emphasis on getting them/putting some local celeb's in the pool

matthew burt
03-14-2011, 02:23 PM
I personally think your "Box" is beautiful Joe! :-D

HOG WILD BBQ
03-14-2011, 03:22 PM
if i was a judge, i would give it a 9. Good job

Capn Kev
03-14-2011, 03:35 PM
Good question Bentley...It does appear from some other comments that this particular contest may have an issue due to lack of CBJ's and the organizer not putting an emphasis on getting them/putting some local celeb's in the pool

Here's the answer Joe:

"STATE CHAMPIONSHIP

North Kansas City, MO
Starts: 03/11/2011
Ends: 03/12/2011
Website: http://www.nkcrotary.org
KCBS Reps: LYNDA SHOWALTER, ROSEMARY MORROW, PHIL MORROW

Prize Money: $10000.00
:shocked:CBJ Percentage: 40%:shocked:

pat
03-14-2011, 03:56 PM
delete

Smokin' Joe
03-14-2011, 03:58 PM
:shocked:CBJ Percentage: 40%:shocked:

:shock::doh::mad2::icon_shy

luckyduk
03-14-2011, 04:51 PM
All I can say is wow!! :crazy:

That explains a lot!!
Another reason I am going to have a hard time going back again!

DRQ
03-14-2011, 05:18 PM
Looks great to me.. I would say solid 8..... for sure

smokincracker
03-15-2011, 07:31 AM
Just my style... I Like it....its better than mine..

Balls Casten
03-15-2011, 09:56 AM
they look great Joe.

Ours were just as bad with what we thought was pretty good chicken. And what was real supprizing was that it was not just one judge it was 4 of the 6. A 148 is our lowest chicken score in 3 years.

Of course we missed pork turn-in when we were 20ft from door.:doh:

LongTong
03-15-2011, 10:20 AM
As a CBJ, I would give it an 8 for sure. The photo quality could be better to know for sure but overall, it looks really, really good!

monty3777
03-15-2011, 02:19 PM
So, how do we make CBJ judging more consistant without making judges clones?

I think the answer is simple. In beer judging, the judges actually talk to each other! They have to be able to justify their scores to one another. The idea of being silent during judging in KCBS is ridiculous. If a judge wants to hand out a 5 when everyone else is giving 8s and 9s then there would be some conversation about why the judge believes that score is appropriate. Maybe he or she will stick to their first score, if so - good for them - but that would eliminate someone giving out a score they don't fully understand.

On the other side, this would also prevent a bad box from getting a 999.

monty3777
03-15-2011, 02:20 PM
As a CBJ, I would give it an 8 for sure.


Well, there's your problem. You are an actual CBJ!!! :heh::heh::becky::becky::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Meat Burner
03-15-2011, 02:42 PM
Pic is a little too small but sure looks like 8/9.

Maddog's
03-15-2011, 02:57 PM
Yes I'm a judge but primarily a COOK, a cook who is super critical about his own entries' appearance...SUPER critical, just ask my wife.
Looking at the picture, here's what I notice.... the uniformity, by my standards, is close but not as close as I want them. I'm talking UNIFORMITY OF SIZE which, of course you, as the cook, have total control over in terms of how you trim your thighs before you cook them and which ones you pick out to submit when they are done. If you want your box to POP, make those puppies absolutely as uniform in size as is possible. These look pretty darned uniform...pretty close.
The overall COLOR of the thighs is just downright yummy. Isn't appearance about making us want to eat it? Well, you have.
Let's go further. I see sauce in the parsley...not perfect. You know, the more I look, the more sauce I see on the damned parsley. That is totally avoidable. Be both careful about not getting it on there in the first place (which admittedly is tough) and then be diligent about cleaning it off after the chicken is "put to bed". There are some easy ways to do that. This will sound silly to anyone who isn't into turning in boxes that rate 9 for appearance... que tips -- are they named for barbeQUE? One cue tip gets the bulk of it off. Then follow with a wet q-tip to wash off the rest of the dribbled or rubbed off sauce.
I see tong marks (or some such imperfection) on the thigh in the upper right. That's avoidable during the cooking and CERTAINLY avoidable while you build the box. If your fingers or tongs pull off GLAZED on sauce, it's difficult to cover that up. If they pull away brushed on sauce, that's simple...just brush more on but it appears in this pic that tongs or something pulled off glazed on sauce. Hence the yellow marks.
But here's the big one, I see sauce on the top of the thighs, not fully down the sides (or presumably on the bottoms). The error of saucing the tops but not bothering to cover the whole thigh is a real appearance gaff. It IS very noteceable. Just take a look. If you want it to look good in it's shiny new shirt, don't forget to put the pants on!
While I am VERY critical of my own entries' appearance, as a judge I am not that critical. Having pointed out all of these terrrible, terrible negatives, I would score this box an 8 on appearance. Meaning, it has a LOT going for it, uniformity, color, presentation in the box, overall appeal...all are pretty strong and yes, it does have some Pop, that elusive magic that hits when the judge first sees the open box. Of all the tiny green men running around in the judges brain, how many of them just said the word "Wow" when they first say this entry? If most all of them did, it's a 9. If most of them did but a number are pointing at minor errors, it's an 8. (Like this box) The more minor errors that stand out, the faster it get's to 7 and any major problems make the appearance score START at 7 and probably backslide from there to account for a number of minor errors, if present.
You have no major errors. A few minor ones that keep it from the 9 score but it's close and I hope these tips help you get there. Why is this not a 9? I've seen literally perfect chicken boxes. This isn't perfect. They get 9. This gets 8. Can you win with an 8 on appearance? Oh, hell yes but shoot for that 9 every time!
Shoot for perfect. Be anal about it. Why not? You control EVERY single aspect of this entry's appearance. Take charge and make it POP!!

Maddog's
03-15-2011, 03:03 PM
I was commenting (above) about Smokin Cracker's entry in post #55.

Lake Dogs
03-15-2011, 03:04 PM
So, how do we make CBJ judging more consistant without making judges clones?

Certainly taste and to a lesser extent tenderness are more subjective
and "in the eye of the beholder". However, presentation/appearance isn't
nearly so subjective, not across a 4+ point range. Whatever a presentation
was, it wasn't both bad and great...

Anyway, other sanctioning bodies have different scoring systems and
more exhaustive training, testing, and certification processes that tend
to keep scores usually within 2 points. That, and there are judge captains
that question scores outside a range and work with the very rare rogue
judge. To some degree KCBS is a victim of their own success. However,
they really seem to embrace the willy-nilly-ness of it, and to me it's a
complete slap in the face to every team/cook who competes.

Rookie'48
03-16-2011, 12:11 AM
Solid 8 from me minimum. I only read the first two or three posts, now I'll go back & read the rest of the thread.